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Israel lobby v Corbyn


Jdog

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9 hours ago, AFCDannyFTH said:

Do you consider criticism of Israel to be antisemitic? 

What is viewed as symptomatic of antisemitism is the way people latch onto Israel as their obsessive cause celebre and appear to hold it to a completely different set of standards than other states. Nothing wrong with being bitterly opposed to Benjamin Netanyahu right now (he is clearly up to no good) but if you have hee haw to say about what Hamas get up to and other examples of grave injustice that happen around the world and exclusively focus on Israel, people will start to wonder whether it's because you have deep prejudices against the you know whos and have found a socially acceptable way to vent them.

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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9 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What is viewed as symptomatic of antisemitism is the way people latch onto Israel as their obsessive cause celebre and appear to hold it to a completely different set of standards than other states. Nothing wrong with being bitterly opposed to Benjamin Netanyahu right now (he is clearly up to no good) but if you have hee haw to say about what Hamas get up to and other examples of grave injustice that happen around the world and exclusively focus on Israel, people will start to wonder whether it's because you have deep prejudices against the you know whos and have found a socially acceptable way to vent them.

All people want is for Israel to be held to the same standards are other states.

Can you name another state that has been illegally occupying huge swathes of land and millions of people for over half a century? That engages daily in genocide and ethnic cleansing, with full backing from the most powerful countries in the world?

Israel is in material breach of more UN resolutions than any nation in history. 43 times resolutions have been passed with the threat of military action to intervene, only for the USA to use its veto 43 times. Iraq was invaded over 13.

Israel literally takes Palestinian prisoners, injects them with diseases, then releases them back into Palestinian society hoping it will spread and they will kill as many as possible. They actually do this.

What Hamas have done is nothing in comparison, and completely legal. Do you think the Jews in the Warsaw ghettos wouldn't have lobbed some rockets into Berlin if they could? The only issues with Hamas are the methods they use are somewhat indiscriminate and they are extremists who rule their own areas with brutality. 

Equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism is the most intellectually dishonest and lazy trope imaginable, and if you want to do that start with people like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein and lets see what you have to say about them.

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1 minute ago, HalfCutNinja said:

All people want is for Israel to be held to the same standards are other states.

Can you name another state that has been illegally occupying huge swathes of land and millions of people for over half a century? That engages daily in genocide and ethnic cleansing, with full backing from the most powerful countries in the world?

Israel is in material breach of more UN resolutions than any nation in history. 43 times resolutions have been passed with the threat of military action to intervene, only for the USA to use its veto 43 times. Iraq was invaded over 13.

Israel literally takes Palestinian prisoners, injects them with diseases, then releases them back into Palestinian society hoping it will spread and they will kill as many as possible. They actually do this.

What Hamas have done is nothing in comparison, and completely legal. Do you think the Jews in the Warsaw ghettos wouldn't have lobbed some rockets into Berlin if they could? The only issues with Hamas are the methods they use are somewhat indiscriminate and they are extremists who rule their own areas with brutality. 

Equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism is the most intellectually dishonest and lazy trope imaginable, and if you want to do that start with people like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein and lets see what you have to say about them.

I'm a fan of both Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein although I think the latter has lost his balance a bit but that's understandable after what he has been subjected to by the pro-Israeli lobby in the United States over the years. As for other colonial occupations and also having something to say about them:

 

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6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I'm a fan of both Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein although I think the latter has lost his balance a bit but that's understandable after what he has been subjected to by the pro-Israeli lobby in the United States over the years. As for other colonial occupations and also having something to say about them:

 

West Papua is a reasonable example but Hawaii you're having a laugh.

Neither are remotely close to what has gone on in the Palestinian territories, however.

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West Papua is a reasonable example but Hawaii you're having a laugh.
Neither are remotely close to what has gone on in the Palestinian territories, however.
Apart from the illegal occupation bit and suppression of the rights of native Hawaiians for almost 60 years in the last century?
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9 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:
27 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:
West Papua is a reasonable example but Hawaii you're having a laugh.
Neither are remotely close to what has gone on in the Palestinian territories, however.

Apart from the illegal occupation bit and suppression of the rights of native Hawaiians for almost 60 years in the last century?

Mate that's the entire United States. Can you point out when they've been bombed by f-35's recently, injected with pathogens, denied things like water and electricity, had their homes destroyed by cruise fucking missiles or been detained for years without charges or trial?

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1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

More the point that Pep didn't know about Hawaii.

By the way, I'm not indulging in whataboutery - the actions of Netanyahu and the Israeli government are utterly reprehensible.
 

Or every single other state in the whole country that was founded on the genocide of 98% of the indigenous population who are still treated as second class citizens to this day?

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The “balanced, nuanced, complex issue” gang are fucking loathsome. Just look at the land grab since Israel’s inception and you can see who the bad guys really are. Whether it was through "purchases", gains from war, compensation or whatever else, land of another sovereign nation is no-ones to sell, or indeed steal. It's plainly ludicrous what some of the defenders of the Israeli state come out with. It's even more ludicrous when our own British MP's tie themselves in knots trying to blame both sides, when we are one of (if not THE) the biggest arms supplier to Israel. 

Edited by SweeperDee
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A two-state solution on close to 1967 borders is unpalatable ideologically because it rewards the original Zionist land grab but it is the only viable pragmatic solution at this point given there is no realistic way to peacefully undo the various population transfers that happened in both directions from 1948 onwards. In order to get the stalled Oslo Accords process back on track both sides have to stop firing missiles at each other, stop voting in extremists and have to get serious about a lasting compromise rather than allowing people within their own camp to believe that going after the whole shebang is still on the agenda.

The road to that has to pass through Washington because the biggest problem in being able to apply international pressure on Israel to do the right thing is the pro-Israeli lobby in the United States. If people don't see sense soon I suspect Israel-Palestine is heading for a catastrophic end game because Israel is way too small to be able to successfully sustain the Netanyahu style military solution long term. The problems they are having with Iron Dome in recent days in stopping direct missile hits in Tel Aviv are a glimpse of how quickly things could shift for them strategically if they are not able to stay one step ahead on countering emerging drone technology.

 

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I did a job off Israel some years back and flew in and out of Jerusalem,  the city at that time seem prosperous and bustling though the hotel was ultra expensive, signed up and did the Jesus tour and our guide was a German Jew an Israeli naturalised citizen, when we got to the wailing wall we all were conscious of a couple of tanks and an army presence just to one side of the wall but other than that the tour was straightforward with visits to the Sepulchre and the Stations of the Cross, but when we got to Bethlehem the guide immediately handed over to a Palestinian as the town is under Palestinian authority, what struck me though was how friendly the Palestinians were with our German Jewish guide, you would never have thought that there was any hostility between the two peoples.

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3 hours ago, SandyCromarty said:

 what struck me though was how friendly the Palestinians were with our German Jewish guide, you would never have thought that there was any hostility between the two peoples.

 I have always found that throughout the world 'the peoples' are usually brilliant. It's the politicians and the 'establishment' who 'speak for the peoples' that are the kunts.

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9 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

never trust a politician who says they are speaking on behalf of the people of "whatever country"

Keep your voice down. This is not the section of the forum to post something so sensible. A lot of people won't like your Nicola jibe. 

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