Israel lobby v Corbyn

[Moomintroll]

We, along with our French & American counterparts, really have a lot to answer for around the clusterfuck that has been the Middle East since the end of WW1. There are so many faults on all sides & I have sympathy with them all as to how they are behaving as they are, but we are entirely responsible for this situation.

[yoda]

The Greatest Military Intelligence In The World doing another terrific job of targeting legitimate threats in, umm, the AP building and a refugee camp. 

 

[Detournement]

International Rules Based Order

[Detournement]

War crime. 

[coprolite]

25 minutes ago, Perkin Flump said:

We, along with our French & American counterparts, really have a lot to answer for around the clusterfuck that has been the Middle East since the end of WW1. There are so many faults on all sides & I have sympathy with them all as to how they are behaving as they are, but we are entirely responsible for this situation.

I'm afraid that's Eurocentric bollocks. The middle east has been a central part of the world order since we were in the stone age.

The Ottoman were there for years before us and Jewish refugees from persecution were flooding in from Russia and the rest of the Ottoman Empire throughout the 19th century. 

Zionism as a movement (and arab opposition) was underway well before the western powers turned up. 

Clearly the british mandates and support for zionism didn't help the situation. I agree we have a lot to answer for.

But this wasn't something we created, it was something we made worse. 

I think the whole thing can be traced back to Joshua smiting the canaanites, with trumpets no less. 

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I'm afraid that's Eurocentric bollocks. 

The UK signed an enhanced military treaty with Israel with Israel 6 months. The text is secret but it's safe to assume we are collobarting in the same way as we are in Yemen. 

If the USA, UK and the EU cut off military support for Israel it would be up shit creek. 

[LongTimeLurker]

11 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I'm afraid that's Eurocentric bollocks. The middle east has been a central part of the world order since we were in the stone age.

The Ottoman were there for years before us and Jewish refugees from persecution were flooding in from Russia and the rest of the Ottoman Empire throughout the 19th century. 

Zionism as a movement (and arab opposition) was underway well before the western powers turned up. 

Clearly the british mandates and support for zionism didn't help the situation. I agree we have a lot to answer for.

But this wasn't something we created, it was something we made worse. 

I think the whole thing can be traced back to Joshua smiting the canaanites, with trumpets no less. 

....it also wasn't the western powers that drove non-Zionist Arabic speaking Mizrahi Jews out of Arab countries post-1948. Something that a lot of people who refer to the Nakba conveniently forget about as they need a purely Ashkenazi Israel to be able to peddle their preferred narrative of Israel being a western colonial settler state. In reality the flow of refugees was not one way and it's more complex than that.

Edited May 15, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[coprolite]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

The UK signed an enhanced military treaty with Israel with Israel 6 months. The text is secret but it's safe to assume we are collobarting in the same way as we are in Yemen. 

If the USA, UK and the EU cut off military support for Israel it would be up shit creek. 

Like i said, we make it worse. 

I don't think ethical foreign policy is really the UK's bag. 

[Moomintroll]

12 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I'm afraid that's Eurocentric bollocks. The middle east has been a central part of the world order since we were in the stone age.

The Ottoman were there for years before us and Jewish refugees from persecution were flooding in from Russia and the rest of the Ottoman Empire throughout the 19th century. 

Zionism as a movement (and arab opposition) was underway well before the western powers turned up. 

Clearly the british mandates and support for zionism didn't help the situation. I agree we have a lot to answer for.

But this wasn't something we created, it was something we made worse. 

I think the whole thing can be traced back to Joshua smiting the canaanites, with trumpets no less. 

Yeah, I agree with that, cradle of civilisation and they have been waging war on everyone & everything outwith their own tribes & city states since probably 4000 BC. We did make it massively worse with our actions during & after both world wars nonetheless.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I'm afraid that's Eurocentric bollocks. The middle east has been a central part of the world order since we were in the stone age.
The Ottoman were there for years before us and Jewish refugees from persecution were flooding in from Russia and the rest of the Ottoman Empire throughout the 19th century. 
Zionism as a movement (and arab opposition) was underway well before the western powers turned up. 
Clearly the british mandates and support for zionism didn't help the situation. I agree we have a lot to answer for.
But this wasn't something we created, it was something we made worse. 
I think the whole thing can be traced back to Joshua smiting the canaanites, with trumpets no less. 

We certainly aren't responsible for the current direction of Netanyahu's policies.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I am not trying to justify anything and I am opposed to both Hamas and Likud. It would be much better if Fatah and Labour had not been eclipsed electorally.

Fatah only have themselves to blame..

Years in power doing f**k all but lining their own pockets.

Unfortunately it seems the Palestinians have replaced one group of corrupt leaders with two groups of corrupt leaders - the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza.

Not that the Palestinians have a monopoly on corruption - Netanyahu has his own ongoing corruption trial.

Given the current horse-trading to form a new Israeli government that could oust him you just have to wonder how much the current crisis is down to him shit-stirring to shore up his base and the far right.

It really is a fucking mess.

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Fucking hell

 

[Juanhourjoe]

28 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

..it also wasn't the western powers that drove non-Zionist Arabic speaking Mizrahi Jews out of Arab countries post-1948

Interesting you should mention that. As I had watched a few documentaries a while back, about Jews remaining in North African countries. They were claiming the exodus to Israel was caused by a campaign of fear propoganda, through things like leaflet drops. And not hostility from Arabs in their homelands.

[Mr. Brightside]

That IDF PR Twitter account is truly staggering. 

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

Bitching and moaning about straw men arguments on an internet forum while simultaneously pretending that no one else understands just how terribly complicated the situation is should result in an instant ban tbh

[John Lambies Doos]

Party Membership stood at less than 200,000 in 2015. In April this year, membership stood at 552, 000. How many of those joined because of Sir Keir Starmer? Whether it was the youth who wanted to be part of something, or those, like me, rejoining because there was finally a left-wing leadership candidate to vote for, one thing we didn't want was a return to Blair's Third way scam - that Corbyn was never going to be everyone's cup of tea, but the Manifesto both in 2017 and 2019 blew one argument out of the water - for the first time in a generation, "they're all the bloody same" was demonstrable bullshit - and call me old-fashioned, but the manifesto is what should influence votes, not the Mail and Scum.  A year down the line, the leaders of the two traditional opposition parties are Knights of the Realm, and the Government is like an Etonian reunion. You had a choice, Britain, and you royally fúcked it - all because you think Rachel Riley and David fúcking Baddiel have got anything, any fucking thing, to contribute to the debate. And don't get me started on Hodge or Blair's lad's ex-girlfriend.
I don't know any Jews - or at least, I don't know anyone who has made their faith known to me. Outside of the sky-fairy nonsense where they gain the same level of disdain from me as Muslims or Christians, I've got no axe to grind one way or the other. But when B-list celebrities and Right-wing niche newspapers tell me I'm an anti-semite because I think killing innocent civilians is a wee bit inappropriate, they can go fúck themselves.
I believe in an inclusive, respectful society where everyone has their rights respected. I do not believe in a society where minorities can scream "oppression!" and have their complaint accepted without proper scrutiny, because they have the right connections. 

I'd say its currently nowhere near 582k

[LongTimeLurker]

6 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

Bitching and moaning about straw men arguments on an internet forum while simultaneously pretending that no one else understands just how terribly complicated the situation is should result in an instant ban tbh

There's nothing complicated about understanding that both Hamas and Likud should be nowhere near governance of a state with access to some sort of missile technology. It is frankly bizarre that there are some people on here who can only find fault with one side in this conflict.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There's nothing complicated about understanding that both Hamas and Likud should be nowhere near governance of a state with access to some sort of missile technology. It is frankly bizarre that there are some people on here who can only find fault with one side in this conflict.

I'm afraid that is a straw man argument, no one has said either of those things. Stop virtue signalling please 

[LongTimeLurker]

If Israel can't keep Tel Aviv safe from relatively low cost and easily manufactured weaponry like this they are in deep trouble. The Iron Dome costs a fortune to operate.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Detournement]

There is nothing complicated about this. The Israeli government manufactured this crisis and are solely responsible for these events.