Israel lobby v Corbyn

[Guest]

I'm an SNP member and I see myself as both a Nationalist and a Socialist, however while there's no doubt that Labour are completely incompetent and full of backstabbing rats, I do believe Corbyn is a decent individual and I do like his socialist viewpoint, but unfortunately for all those holding traditional Labour values, their party is full of self centred careerists who would sell their soul / granny for a couple of quid and as such that makes them a joke in the bigger political picture.

Of course from a Scottish perspective they failed us for decade after decade, so why would anyone think that would suddenly change.

The SNP themselves though must now agree a firm strategy and  direction as their recent taxation changes, although a step in the right direction, were a bit of a damp squib as they succumbed to pressure from big business and the upper middle classes. Taking the Exec pay revalations today as an example, nothing has changed at all in this country, the top earners are becoming wealthier by the minute meanwhile the rest of us are becoming poorer, homelessness is increasing shockingly by the day and all we get is soundbites and discussions but no action. This can only continue for so long before we hit a tipping point and people have had enough.

I do seriously hope that we end up with a right wing tory brexit government with the likes of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Gove etc, as then we might very well gain our independence at long last...............

[WhiteRoseKillie]

2 hours ago, WATTOO said:

Corbyn's biggest mistake is in attempting to justify his actions and his beliefs to people who are not in the least bit interested and are just out to get him.

I firmly believe that it's high time he stopped apologising when no apology is required and instead called their bluff. 

Ironically if anti semitism is indeed on the rise then it's really not surprising as this attitude of "it's all about us" and "we're all that matters" from prominent Jews and the media is really starting to turn many against them and of course it seems it's certain Jews themselves who believe that socialism is incompatible with judaism and as such they're just fuelling the fire.............

There is a problem with some of the "Jewish Community" seemingly on the verge of sewing on their own stars to show how oppressed they are - which is absolutely ludicrous given their status in wider society. Just remember for every Maureen fúcking Lipman there's a David Schneider, for every Margaret "what child abuse? what tax evasion?" Hodge there's a Noam Chomsky. It may not be as easy getting to hear their voice, but there are reasonable Jewish and non-Jewish voices contributing to this whole debate - which is not, let's remember, about Corbyn, but about an attempt to silence criticism of a racist, genocidal government. 

As for Judaism and Socialism being incompatible, I've always seen the majority of religions' core teachings - minus the imaginary best friend, of course - as pretty much being the epitome of socialism

[Jacksgranda]

1 hour ago, HTG said:

Me too but it's time to be bold and confront the situation. 

Sturgeon was very clear that a second referendum would only be on the cards in the event of significant change from the position in 2014. 

Brexit is a massive change and she's not going to ever have greater reason to go back out to the people. It needs to happen soon and whether it is lost or not, the real crime would be not to ask. 

I think that's a very good point, there would be little point in saying in 5 years time, "We should have called a referendum in 2020, we would have won it then."

[dorlomin]

Jeremy Corbyn

"I was present when the EU referendum campaign took place. I don't think I was actually involved in it."

[WhiteRoseKillie]

2 hours ago, WATTOO said:

I'm an SNP member and I see myself as both a Nationalist and a Socialist, however while there's no doubt that Labour are completely incompetent and full of backstabbing rats, I do believe Corbyn is a decent individual and I do like his socialist viewpoint, but unfortunately for all those holding traditional Labour values, their party is full of self centred careerists who would sell their soul / granny for a couple of quid and as such that makes them a joke in the bigger political picture.

Of course from a Scottish perspective they failed us for decade after decade, so why would anyone think that would suddenly change.

The SNP themselves though must now agree a firm strategy and  direction as their recent taxation changes, although a step in the right direction, were a bit of a damp squib as they succumbed to pressure from big business and the upper middle classes. Taking the Exec pay revalations today as an example, nothing has changed at all in this country, the top earners are becoming wealthier by the minute meanwhile the rest of us are becoming poorer, homelessness is increasing shockingly by the day and all we get is soundbites and discussions but no action. This can only continue for so long before we hit a tipping point and people have had enough.

I do seriously hope that we end up with a right wing tory brexit government with the likes of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Gove etc, as then we might very well gain our independence at long last...............

If we could postpone the looming GE until after conference, the careerists planning on screwing Labour by breaking away won't be in a position to do so. I cannot wait until the purge begins. Umunna gradually sinking, soundbite by soundbite, into Clegg-esque obscurity and that witch Phillips having to survive on whatever she gets from the Murdoch trough until they drop her will be glorious to behold. Hoey, as well, can fúck right off and take Field with her. 

What the current Labour Party offers is a clear choice. Maybe delivering the entire Manifesto is aspirational, but I defy anyone to pick a policy which will actively make their life worse. We've had forty years of this shite, surely it's time to try a different approach? How could they possibly make things worse?

You'll notice that I say Labour Party, as while Corbyn is a leader I personally admire, he has a team behind him who have, to be honest, surpassed all my expectations. Most importantly, they're Socialists, which used to be a given in the Party, but now marks them as separate (gloriously so)from the failed experiment of the 90's rebrand. 

Speaking from South of the border, though, while the SNP have taken advantage of Labour's abandonment of their core support, the left is not their natural home and Labour's rediscovery of their raison d'etre  might mean that the SNP will have to start thinking of them as allies rather than adversaries sooner rather than later. 

And in response to previous posts, this is not football or Blur/Oasis tribalism. This is real life, and if a party is offering your kids (and you) free education and an affordable house along with secure, better-paid work and representation in that work, why the hell would you not vote for them, no matter what the label? Fúck what Corbyn looks like, or whether you'd shag McVey, what are the policies? Grow up, people, ffs!

[John Lambies Doos]

The reason I have gone with it a few times (and will continue to) is because it is both valid and very important.
"I want Scottish Independence" is a fair and reasonable position, and one which I support myself, but it is not a valid response to "who would you prefer as the next UK government,  Labour or Tory?"
I may question Corbyn's position on Brexit and question his general leadership qualities but I would have him as PM before any of the Tory alternatives.
 

It's getting boring Granny

[D Angelo Barksdale]

36 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

What the current Labour Party offers is a clear choice. Maybe delivering the entire Manifesto is aspirational, but I defy anyone to pick a policy which will actively make their life worse. 

Labour opposes a second Scottish independence referendum. It is unwanted and unnecessary, and we will campaign tirelessly to ensure Scotland remains part of the UK. 

Well that was easy, I found it in the sole paragraph they dedicated to Scotland in the manifesto.

[Granny Danger]

20 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

5 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

The reason I have gone with it a few times (and will continue to) is because it is both valid and very important.
"I want Scottish Independence" is a fair and reasonable position, and one which I support myself, but it is not a valid response to "who would you prefer as the next UK government,  Labour or Tory?"
I may question Corbyn's position on Brexit and question his general leadership qualities but I would have him as PM before any of the Tory alternatives.
 

It's getting boring Granny

You can put me on ignore.

[John Lambies Doos]

You can put me on ignore.

No chance

[pandarilla]

I think we need to get over the referendum defeat. It was absolutely devastating and I certainly still believe we'll get there in the end.

But Scotland is a part of the UK, and spitting the dummy really doesn't help.

[Detournement]

24 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Labour opposes a second Scottish independence referendum. It is unwanted and unnecessary, and we will campaign tirelessly to ensure Scotland remains part of the UK. 

Well that was easy, I found it in the sole paragraph they dedicated to Scotland in the manifesto.

Do the SNP want a second referendum?

 

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

And in response to previous posts, this is not football or Blur/Oasis tribalism. This is real life, and if a party is offering your kids (and you) free education and an affordable house along with secure, better-paid work and representation in that work, why the hell would you not vote for them, no matter what the label? Fúck what Corbyn looks like, or whether you'd shag McVey, what are the policies? Grow up, people, ffs!

That's far too sensible for on here.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Do the SNP want a second referendum?

 

Unless they're going to declare UDI, I would imagine that they would want one at some point.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

Speaking from South of the border, though, while the SNP have taken advantage of Labour's abandonment of their core support, the left is not their natural home and Labour's rediscovery of their raison d'etre  might mean that the SNP will have to start thinking of them as allies rather than adversaries sooner rather than later. 

 

It might be time for Labour to stop collaborating with the Tories against the SNP then.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

 

And in response to previous posts, this is not football or Blur/Oasis tribalism. This is real life, and if a party is offering your kids (and you) free education and an affordable house along with secure, better-paid work and representation in that work, why the hell would you not vote for them, no matter what the label? Fúck what Corbyn looks like, or whether you'd shag McVey, what are the policies? Grow up, people, ffs!

That's marvelous, sign me up. I assume they have a fast track plan for delivery?

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

1 hour ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

If we could postpone the looming GE until after conference, the careerists planning on screwing Labour by breaking away won't be in a position to do so. I cannot wait until the purge begins. Umunna gradually sinking, soundbite by soundbite, into Clegg-esque obscurity and that witch Phillips having to survive on whatever she gets from the Murdoch trough until they drop her will be glorious to behold. Hoey, as well, can fúck right off and take Field with her. 

What the current Labour Party offers is a clear choice. Maybe delivering the entire Manifesto is aspirational, but I defy anyone to pick a policy which will actively make their life worse. We've had forty years of this shite, surely it's time to try a different approach? How could they possibly make things worse?

You'll notice that I say Labour Party, as while Corbyn is a leader I personally admire, he has a team behind him who have, to be honest, surpassed all my expectations. Most importantly, they're Socialists, which used to be a given in the Party, but now marks them as separate (gloriously so)from the failed experiment of the 90's rebrand. 

Speaking from South of the border, though, while the SNP have taken advantage of Labour's abandonment of their core support, the left is not their natural home and Labour's rediscovery of their raison d'etre  might mean that the SNP will have to start thinking of them as allies rather than adversaries sooner rather than later. 

And in response to previous posts, this is not football or Blur/Oasis tribalism. This is real life, and if a party is offering your kids (and you) free education and an affordable house along with secure, better-paid work and representation in that work, why the hell would you not vote for them, no matter what the label? Fúck what Corbyn looks like, or whether you'd shag McVey, what are the policies? Grow up, people, ffs!

You're obviously a socialist and you admire the turn to the left that Labour are taking under Corbyn.

The problem for Labour is that there are not enough people in the UK who still believe in a 1950's brand of good old fashioned socialist politics. With all respect, you sound a little like independence supporter who can't see why anyone would ever choose anything else.

You can't convert the converted. They're already there. 

For Labour to get into power, they need to persuade vast swathes of 'centre ground' voters the country over that they as a party could form a viable government. I simply don't see how entrenching themselves in a socialist mindset will do that. 

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

 

The problem for Labour is that there are not enough people in the UK who still believe in a 1950's brand of good old fashioned socialist politics. 

 

I wonder?

Let’s be honest we are talking about swing votes in England.  So let’s look at that demographic.

People are pissed off with the rail network and finally realising it’s the fault of privatisation.  Huge issue in large parts of England.

People are pissed off with the levels of social care and NHS provision.

Parents of prospective further and higher education students are looking at free tuition in Scotland and thinking “why not here?”

People are looking at Tory Councils going bankrupt and slashing services.

Add that to the millions who work in the public sector (local government, health service, education, etc.) and have a vested interest and you may have the critical mass required.

 

 

[Detournement]

14 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

For Labour to get into power, they need to persuade vast swathes of 'centre ground' voters the country over that they as a party could form a viable government. I simply don't see how entrenching themselves in a socialist mindset will do that. 

I realise that Aberdeen is somewhat behind the res t of the country but there was an election last year and 12.8m people voted for Labour and their socialist manifesto. They still got 750,000 votes less than the Tories but it's not going to take some huge societal shift for Corbyn to become PM, there is a clear path to that outcome via young voters, non voters and the increasing number of people who are being worn down by this economy.

 

[dorlomin]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

I wonder?

Let’s be honest we are talking about swing votes in England.  So let’s look at that demographic.

People are pissed off with the rail network and finally realising it’s the fault of privatisation.  Huge issue in large parts of England.

People are pissed off with the levels of social care and NHS provision.

Parents of prospective further and higher education students are looking at free tuition in Scotland and thinking “why not here?”

People are looking at Tory Councils going bankrupt and slashing services.

Add that to the millions who work in the public sector (local government, health service, education, etc.) and have a vested interest and you may have the critical mass required.

That would be the place you would expect a moderate Labour party that looked competant to sweep up votes in the marginals in the midlands. (Lets face it you have no fucking clue about who swing voters are and your list is a wild grasp, I mean public sector workers are not by and large "swing voters).

But a buffoon that toasts the provos, lays wreaths for Black September,  obsesses about Trident when it is really not a big vote winner in marginals, who looks like a complete shambles economically, who has no distinct message on Brexit, who has a shadow home secetary who is widely loathed and with her own long list of very dodgy statements?

 

Since the General Election Labour have done nothing in the polls. A slight up tick from UKIP has clipped a tiny bit of the Tories. No one has come from such middling polling to win an election from opposition in decades

Milliiband 15

[spoler][/spoiler]

 

Cameron 2010

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010#/media/File:UK_election_opinion_2005-2010.png

 

2005

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2005#/media/File:2005_ge_polls.png

 

1999

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2001#/media/File:2001_ge_polls.png

 

1997

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_1997#/media/File:1997_ge_polls.png

 

1992

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_1992#/media/File:1992_election_polls.png

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_1987#/media/File:1987_UK_election.png

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by dorlomin

[pandarilla]

Aye cos polls are the go to for excellent predictions these days.

How many times?