Will Scotland ever be good again?

[parsforlife]

This.

It's depressing that one of our most promising players has such lax technique that he coughed up that goal and gave away possession in critical areas twice against Albania. Scottish football papers over the cracks of our terrible technical ability with loads of running, tackling, aggression and enthusiasm - in which John McGinn excels. I watch a fair amount of under 20s and out of all the clubs I've seen I'd say only Accies, Hibs and Celtic are doing things right. The rest seem to believe that the secret of great coaching is shouting.

I'd love our players to have better technique, but let's not dismiss the other aspects of the game, athleticism, Applied aggression, controlled passion, good defensive technique(Inc tackling)... are all fantastic attributes for players to have.

I won't comment on coaching, I don't have any significant insight on what goes on at youth levels.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, parsforlife said:

I'd love our players to have better technique, but let's not dismiss the other aspects of the game, athleticism, Applied aggression, controlled passion, good defensive technique(Inc tackling)... are all fantastic attributes for players to have.

 

I'm not dismissing it - thank God we have that, because what I saw on Tuesday night was an Albania team with a good half-dozen players with better close control than any of ours, maybe with the exception of Callum McGregor. Those traditional Scottish qualities are all that's keeping us from sliding further back. We wanted that victory so much more than Albania and we were bloody determined to get it. Very few Scotland players have ever fallen short of expectations on effort. 

But there's no substitute for technique, a long time ago the game moved more towards those who have it, and at the same time we stopped produced players who could keep the ball under pressure. It's what separates Croatia, Portugal and Belgium from us.

And in any case, our options at central defence are terrible, by a considerable margin the worst Scotland has ever had. That's why we need three centre backs and a defensive midfielder, to try and bolster the area. Our weaknesses are scoring goals, and avoiding conceding. Kind of important stuff. 

[greenockraver]

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

I'm not dismissing it - thank God we have that, because what I saw on Tuesday night was an Albania team with a good half-dozen players with better close control than any of ours, maybe with the exception of Callum McGregor. Those traditional Scottish qualities are all that's keeping us from sliding further back. We wanted that victory so much more than Albania and we were bloody determined to get it. Very few Scotland players have ever fallen short of expectations on effort. 

But there's no substitute for technique, a long time ago the game moved more towards those who have it, and at the same time we stopped produced players who could keep the ball under pressure. It's what separates Croatia, Portugal and Belgium from us.

And in any case, our options at central defence are terrible, by a considerable margin the worst Scotland has ever had. That's why we need three centre backs and a defensive midfielder, to try and bolster the area. Our weaknesses are scoring goals, and avoiding conceding. Kind of important stuff. 

obviously never seen the pressley wilkie era

[Stellaboz]

It's not just technique, it's also movement off the ball. All too often I see players not looking for space or standing still when we have the ball (club level too, more often).

[Savage Henry]

12 hours ago, Cardinal Richelieu said:

Alright man ... just back from a few days up in the middle of nowhere (with no internet!) ... I'll try and review any emails that have come in tomorrow!

Hope you're all well!

Richie

I'm fine, thanks for asking.   Let's have a helicopter conference on Friday, and you can keep us all up to date on those emails.  I've CC'ed Accounts in on this, and they'll liaise on a plan of action.

Henry

[Cardinal Richelieu]

30 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

I'm fine, thanks for asking.   Let's have a helicopter conference on Friday, and you can keep us all up to date on those emails.  I've CC'ed Accounts in on this, and they'll liaise on a plan of action.

Henry

FFS. I've managed to send emails to the wrong people, and to post in the wrong threads on P+B, but I've never managed to do this before. All the more remarkable considering I was sober when I wrote that. 

Anyway, if you can action this by the close of business tomorrow, I'd be very appreciative. 

[velo army]

8 hours ago, GordonS said:

I'm not dismissing it - thank God we have that, because what I saw on Tuesday night was an Albania team with a good half-dozen players with better close control than any of ours, maybe with the exception of Callum McGregor. Those traditional Scottish qualities are all that's keeping us from sliding further back. We wanted that victory so much more than Albania and we were bloody determined to get it. Very few Scotland players have ever fallen short of expectations on effort. 

But there's no substitute for technique, a long time ago the game moved more towards those who have it, and at the same time we stopped produced players who could keep the ball under pressure. It's what separates Croatia, Portugal and Belgium from us.

And in any case, our options at central defence are terrible, by a considerable margin the worst Scotland has ever had. That's why we need three centre backs and a defensive midfielder, to try and bolster the area. Our weaknesses are scoring goals, and avoiding conceding. Kind of important stuff. 

Eh? Armstrong, Tierney, Robertson and Souttar all had excellent close control. There were other times where SOD was taking the ball in tight spaces and not panicking or losing the ball. We kept possession loads of times by just passing it about and around the Albanians. 

The centre back situation hasn’t been this healthy in years. Souttar  won everything in the air and was highly composed when bringing the ball out too. The reason we have three is that it makes room for KT, but also that it facilitates playing out from the back (which we executed brilliantly on Monday).

There’s an infuriating tendency among the Scotland support to see everything negatively, and it’s mistaken for realism. I think we’re not far from being good. There plenty of encouraging signs if you want to see them. Many of which were in evidence on Monday night.

[forameus]

6 minutes ago, velo army said:

There’s an infuriating tendency among the Scotland support to see everything negatively, and it’s mistaken for realism. I think we’re not far from being good. There plenty of encouraging signs if you want to see them. Many of which were in evidence on Monday night.

And seeing as it apparently still needs to be said, we actually won the game.  The opposition doesn't matter.  If we turn in 6 shite performances but still end winning those crucial last two, I couldn't give any less of a shit.  Not that we did, as for once we actually made ourselves look good for the most part.

[Guest bernardblack]

It’s not just technique, it’s getting rid of the mindset of “never pass to someone who’s marked” or “launch a throw in mindlessly up the park”

At the forfar game the other week (different level, I’m aware) someone lost the plot because the right back took the throw to the centre half, got it back and then passed it back to the keeper.

[Savage Henry]

12 minutes ago, bernardblack said:

It’s not just technique, it’s getting rid of the mindset of “never pass to someone who’s marked” or “launch a throw in mindlessly up the park”

At the forfar game the other week (different level, I’m aware) someone lost the plot because the right back took the throw to the centre half, got it back and then passed it back to the keeper.

"Shouldn't be playing the ball out of defence."    Hear that all the time.  Defenders get jeered for not smashing the ball long.  

[Moo]

Punt Mulgrew out the back line unless McCleish insists on playing him as a ball playing centre half and you could argue he’s an older head for Tierney and Soutar. But I’d be more than happy if we continue to play a back three and have it as Tierney McKenna Soutar, youth on their side and all are more than capable of playing at a higher level.

Centre half used to be the problem, I believe we now have the solution in the three above. Obviously the striker role is our current problem and we currently don’t have an obvious solution to play that role just now.

[Gordopolis]

12 minutes ago, Moo said:

Punt Mulgrew out the back line unless McCleish insists on playing him as a ball playing centre half and you could argue he’s an older head for Tierney and Soutar. But I’d be more than happy if we continue to play a back three and have it as Tierney McKenna Soutar, youth on their side and all are more than capable of playing at a higher level.

Centre half used to be the problem, I believe we now have the solution in the three above. Obviously the striker role is our current problem and we currently don’t have an obvious solution to play that role just now.

Tierney McKenna Soutar Would be such a satisfying regular back 3. Will McLeish risk losing the older head in there though? I reckon he might - as he's proved rather bold and single-minded with his selections so far. 

Up front I don't know where we go. Naismith seems like a sticking-plaster solution. Ideally Griffiths catches light over the next few weekends and forces his way into the Celtic team with a fair few goals, and McBurnie continues to do well at Swansea. Those three should be our strikers for the meantime I'd say. Keep Phillips as a winger and hope a few younger forwards can make their mark soon.

[GordonS]

Eh? Armstrong, Tierney, Robertson and Souttar all had excellent close control. There were other times where SOD was taking the ball in tight spaces and not panicking or losing the ball. We kept possession loads of times by just passing it about and around the Albanians. 
The centre back situation hasn’t been this healthy in years. Souttar  won everything in the air and was highly composed when bringing the ball out too. The reason we have three is that it makes room for KT, but also that it facilitates playing out from the back (which we executed brilliantly on Monday).
There’s an infuriating tendency among the Scotland support to see everything negatively, and it’s mistaken for realism. I think we’re not far from being good. There plenty of encouraging signs if you want to see them. Many of which were in evidence on Monday night.

I very much disagree. Souttar is young and centre halves take a long time to develop, but right now he's not a quality defender. Robertson and Armstrong are perfect examples of what I'm talking about - neither are technical players. If they were, they would have stood out wildly at Queen's Park and ICT. They both cover a lot of ground, take up good positions and make good choices, plus Robertson had huge intensity and a glorious left-foot cross. But that's it. They are not particularly technical.

Tierney is better in possession than the others you mentioned, but honestly, would you say he controlled the ball as well as Xhaka?

[8MileBU]

I very much disagree. Souttar is young and centre halves take a long time to develop, but right now he's not a quality defender. Robertson and Armstrong are perfect examples of what I'm talking about - neither are technical players. If they were, they would have stood out wildly at Queen's Park and ICT. They both cover a lot of ground, take up good positions and make good choices, plus Robertson had huge intensity and a glorious left-foot cross. But that's it. They are not particularly technical.

Tierney is better in possession than the others you mentioned, but honestly, would you say he controlled the ball as well as Xhaka?

That’s a nonsense comparison though really. You’re comparing a left back and a centre midfielder. You’d have to give Tierney a game in central midfield and put him in a centre midfielders situations to judge how he controls the ball compared to Xhaka. Similarly, would Xhaka’s control be as good as Tierney’s when making marauding runs forward from left back at full pelt?

[MarkoRaj]

15 hours ago, GordonS said:

Robertson and Armstrong are perfect examples of what I'm talking about - neither are technical players. If they were, they would have stood out wildly at Queen's Park and ICT. They both cover a lot of ground, take up good positions and make good choices, plus Robertson had huge intensity and a glorious left-foot cross. But that's it. They are not particularly technical.

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read

[ONeils4Oyarder]

1 hour ago, MarkoRaj said:

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read

Probably not THE stupidest thing I've ever read, but its certainly a load of pish

[craigkillie]

Andrew Robertson, of course, blended into the background so much at Queen's Park that he earned a move up three divisions within a year. And Armstrong was so anonymous at Inverness as a youth player that he earned a move to Dundee United at the age of 17.

[woof!]

On 13/09/2018 at 01:17, GordonS said:

I'm not dismissing it - thank God we have that, because what I saw on Tuesday night was an Albania team with a good half-dozen players with better close control than any of ours, maybe with the exception of Callum McGregor. Those traditional Scottish qualities are all that's keeping us from sliding further back. We wanted that victory so much more than Albania and we were bloody determined to get it. Very few Scotland players have ever fallen short of expectations on effort. 

But there's no substitute for technique, a long time ago the game moved more towards those who have it, and at the same time we stopped produced players who could keep the ball under pressure. It's what separates Croatia, Portugal and Belgium from us.

And in any case, our options at central defence are terrible, by a considerable margin the worst Scotland has ever had. That's why we need three centre backs and a defensive midfielder, to try and bolster the area. Our weaknesses are scoring goals, and avoiding conceding. Kind of important stuff. 

you’ve not listened to the Podcast, have you?

[No_Problemo]

I'm not dismissing it - thank God we have that, because what I saw on Tuesday night was an Albania team with a good half-dozen players with better close control than any of ours, maybe with the exception of Callum McGregor. Those traditional Scottish qualities are all that's keeping us from sliding further back. We wanted that victory so much more than Albania and we were bloody determined to get it. Very few Scotland players have ever fallen short of expectations on effort. 
But there's no substitute for technique, a long time ago the game moved more towards those who have it, and at the same time we stopped produced players who could keep the ball under pressure. It's what separates Croatia, Portugal and Belgium from us.
And in any case, our options at central defence are terrible, by a considerable margin the worst Scotland has ever had. That's why we need three centre backs and a defensive midfielder, to try and bolster the area. Our weaknesses are scoring goals, and avoiding conceding. Kind of important stuff. 

What a load of utter shite.

Albania barely got a touch all game, we dictated the entire game by passing it about and yet they are technically better than us?

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, No_Problemo said:

 

What a load of utter shite.

Albania barely got a touch all game, we dictated the entire game by passing it about and yet they are technically better than us?
 

It's a common trope to claim that all of our opponents are technically better than us, whether or not we beat them. I remember people claiming that the Faroes were technically better than us when we beat them 6-0 at Celtic Park (the protagonist in that was an oddball Ross County fan who doesn't post any more, who claimed our players were the worst in Europe).

It's such an undefinable, weasley term that it's impossible to actually prove these people wrong, because they can always shift the goalposts in terms of what they mean by "technically better".