Will Scotland ever be good again?

[DA Baracus]

No

[woof!]

1 hour ago, DanMc99 said:

top class?

“Coming through” we have Mctominay, Gilmour and Cochrane. The balance of probability is that they will be top class.

[GordonS]

10 hours ago, The Moonster said:

You sound a right bag of fun.

I am. I believe Scotland has all the attributes needed to regularly reach the quarter finals of major tournaments. All we need is to get our shit together, and that starts with accepting the scale of the problem, then copying what others have done, with no compromises for the traditionalists.

Croatia have just made the World Cup final - that really could be Scotland.

FWIW, I don't think we truly realised how good our clubs were in the early 80s. Aberdeen were ranked second in Europe, and Dundee United reached fourth. That's outrageous for clubs of their size and I don't think we realised how good they were. Malpas, Hegarty, Narey and Malpas is the best back four in Scottish football history and was one of the best in the world. Why they never achieved more with the national team is a question no-one can answer.

[GordonS]

11 hours ago, SpoonTon said:

We also had good players. 

You can say that other teams had weak periods, etc., but we still consistently got there. I don't think many are under the illusion that we were world beaters, but we had good players and were consistently competitive at a good level. How many other nations make five world cups in a row? 

It's not 'make Scotland great again.' We were never great, but we were good. 

We undoubtedly had some good players, in fact we've had genuinely world class players. Their persistent failure to beat inferior teams in Euro qualifiers and at World Cup finals was, in hindsight, a huge wasted opportunity.

I don't regard just getting to a World Cup as being the mark of a good side, but it's just a matter of language and it's fair enough to say it is. But at leats 56 countries have gone further in tournaments than we ever have and for a country of our footballing resources and tradition I think that's shite.

[GordonS]

8 hours ago, woof! said:

Undoubtedly we have a generation of players emerging who are better than before. If our best 11 now started the previous campaign we would have qualified. Croatia have a population of 3 million. Don’t tolerate negativity.

We have two players that could get in the Croatia team and they both play the same position. 

[GordonS]

7 hours ago, Shandon Par said:

So many Scottish players are socially awkward and can't seem to cope with life outside their circle of mates. In employment terms, football is a global market and our players don't really come across as being physically or mentally prepared to measure up to the best.

We need a player exchange programme. We have the Erasmus scheme in universities, and hundreds, possibly thousands, of Scottish students are at European universities at any one time, doing a year there. My wife went to Clermont Ferrand for her third year.

Our young players - male and female - would learn so much about how to organise themselves and their lives from playing in the youth teams in other countries, and about how at that level it's all about technique. It's not all one way - if I were coach of a young player in Italy who needed toughening up, I'd send them to Scotland. I think playing for Rangers was an integral part of the development of guys like Rino Gattuso and Gio Van Bronckhorst. More mixing with young foreign players, at home and abroad, would do wonders for our young players.

[Gordopolis]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

I am. I believe Scotland has all the attributes needed to regularly reach the quarter finals of major tournaments. All we need is to get our shit together, and that starts with accepting the scale of the problem, then copying what others have done, with no compromises for the traditionalists.

Croatia have just made the World Cup final - that really could be Scotland.

FWIW, I don't think we truly realised how good our clubs were in the early 80s. Aberdeen were ranked second in Europe, and Dundee United reached fourth. That's outrageous for clubs of their size and I don't think we realised how good they were. Malpas, Hegarty, Narey and Malpas is the best back four in Scottish football history and was one of the best in the world. Why they never achieved more with the national team is a question no-one can answer.

Recently read Jim McLean's 'Jousting with Giants'. It is really quite incredible what those two clubs achieved. Polarisation of wealth etc sinc means the like is virtually impossible now.

[Tulloch Gorum]

8 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Recently read Jim McLean's 'Jousting with Giants'. It is really quite incredible what those two clubs achieved. Polarisation of wealth etc sinc means the like is virtually impossible now.

Indeed.  The likes of Ajax, who were titans at their peak (to mix up Greek literary characters) will probably never win the European Cup/ Champions League again, unless they get bought over by a Thai billionaire or capitalism collpases, taking the current structure of elite football with it.  Hell, Steaua București won it 1986.  Long gone days. 

[forameus]

Oh good, another thread where people who just fucking love being miserable can have a jolly big w**k over how "terrible" we are.  Love these.

When are we going to get the first "it cannae get any worse min" type post?

[The Moonster]

Can anyone tell me the logic behind our councils removing all football goals and locking up pitches over the summer period?

[craigkillie]

The grass needs time to rest, I suspect.  However, councils should definitely do more to get people out playing by making other facilities available.

Edited July 12, 2018 by craigkillie

[The Moonster]

22 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The grass needs time to rest, I suspect.  However, councils should definitely do more to get people out playing by making other facilities available.

It just seems ridiculous to me, do other countries do this?  I wonder if staggering these rest periods would help, let one pitch rest whilst another is available, rather than just removing everything altogether. 

[forameus]

Was talking a while back with a guy up at Powerleague.  They used to lock their pitches overnight, which as a private business is fair enough.  I'd be pretty annoyed if I'm charging the amounts they do for a pitch, and people are getting it for free when it isn't busy.  They stopped locking them when every night they'd just get people smashing the doors up to get access.  Now it seems to be that you can use the pitch as long as it's empty and you're not being a dick.  It's pretty poor that it comes to that when they should just be able to find a bit of grass and play.

However, it has become one of these cliches now.  If we had green rolling fields that kids could play in, would it mean in 10-15 years we're far better than we are now (which isn't that bad)?  It just seems like one of those easy things to point to, so that people can say something about it and have an opinion, so they can feel like they've contributed.  We qualified for tournaments when all kids got was consumption for Christmas, and I doubt they really had the facilities that we could potentially have now.  At the risk of sounding like the sort of person I've just talked about, I'd say the fact that kids aren't allowed to be kids now for fear that something will happen to them is more to blame.  Not to say you just push them out the door until midnight and get pished, but there's definitely far more fear.  No wonder kids are more interested in other pursuits when they're brought up being told that everything outside is dangerous and they should stay away from it.  There needs to be some kind of middle ground.

[craigkillie]

Powerleague is a private company and can do whatever they want, so it's a real indictment on councils across the country that they are doing more for free access to facilities than the actual authorities are.

[thisal]

Does anyone live in an area where kids can't play football? There is a park near me with plenty of open space for a kick about also has a an AstroTurf pitch with basketball nets and goals. There are at least another 6 areas suitable for a kick about within 15 minute walk as well as the Stepford Football Centre if you want something a bit more organised. I don't think this is unusual for Glasgow.

[craigkillie]

There are loads of places to play football near me (East Dunbartonshire Council) too, but part of the issue is that council facilities are charging through the nose for actual organised football.  I know that they have to raise revenue somehow, but it's really short-sighted and something needs to be done by someone about it.

[The Moonster]

14 minutes ago, forameus said:

Was talking a while back with a guy up at Powerleague.  They used to lock their pitches overnight, which as a private business is fair enough.  I'd be pretty annoyed if I'm charging the amounts they do for a pitch, and people are getting it for free when it isn't busy.  They stopped locking them when every night they'd just get people smashing the doors up to get access.  Now it seems to be that you can use the pitch as long as it's empty and you're not being a dick.  It's pretty poor that it comes to that when they should just be able to find a bit of grass and play.

However, it has become one of these cliches now.  If we had green rolling fields that kids could play in, would it mean in 10-15 years we're far better than we are now (which isn't that bad)?  It just seems like one of those easy things to point to, so that people can say something about it and have an opinion, so they can feel like they've contributed.  We qualified for tournaments when all kids got was consumption for Christmas, and I doubt they really had the facilities that we could potentially have now.  At the risk of sounding like the sort of person I've just talked about, I'd say the fact that kids aren't allowed to be kids now for fear that something will happen to them is more to blame.  Not to say you just push them out the door until midnight and get pished, but there's definitely far more fear.  No wonder kids are more interested in other pursuits when they're brought up being told that everything outside is dangerous and they should stay away from it.  There needs to be some kind of middle ground.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that closing pitches over the summer is the sole reason we aren't producing players, but it surely has an effect on development. They don't have access to playing fields so they find something else to do instead.  Nobody plays on the street any more either, when I was a teenager (I'm 29 now) we would be out playing every day, whether at the local school or on a quiet street. Kids can't play at the local schools now because they've all built plastic pitches which are locked up (and the police get phoned if you climb the fence to get in).  For one reason or another they don't play on streets (perhaps another of your "too dangerous outside" points here). Kids who kick a ball every day are likely to get better at kicking a ball, the same way they would if they picked up a guitar every day. We don't push them towards it though, we actually repel them from playing football (No Ball Games signs can get in the fucking bin).

Our culture goes towards our lack of players too, too many wee bawbags who think they've made it and very few with a drive and attitude like Andy Robertson. Having seen what some youths are on at Premiership clubs, I can't help but think we give them too much too young. I don't quite understand why youth teams aren't like apprentices any more either, cleaning boots/their clubs training ground/the stadium. Not saying we need to treat them like slaves but as you say there must be a middle ground to find.

[TheScarf]

19 hours ago, Shandon Par said:

Does anything beyond hard work really hold us back? And not just with the ball but life in general. Andy Robertson, for example, comes across as probably the brightest lad in the squad and had plans to go to uni before his move to Dundee Utd. It must take some level of intelligence to focus on game plans and instructions from someone like Klopp. So many Scottish players are socially awkward and can't seem to cope with life outside their circle of mates

Stuart Armstrong is another great example of intelligence and hard work paying off.  He studies law through the Open University and seems to have his head screwed on.  He's got his move to the Barclays too.

I mind an interview with Armstrong and GMS the day they both signed for Celtic.  Armstrong was talking about his studies whilst GMS was playing Fifa in the background.  Now that's not to say every footballer should be working in the background to secure a great job once they retire,  but I think there could be some correlation between success as a sportsman and great academia.

[Northboy]

1 hour ago, thisal said:

Does anyone live in an area where kids can't play football? There is a park near me with plenty of open space for a kick about also has a an AstroTurf pitch with basketball nets and goals. There are at least another 6 areas suitable for a kick about within 15 minute walk as well as the Stepford Football Centre if you want something a bit more organised. I don't think this is unusual for Glasgow.

There's plenty of good areas around me where kids could play football but I hardly ever see anyone having a good old fashioned kick about. Whatever the reason, football is an organised activity these days.

[forameus]

30 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Kids can't play at the local schools now because they've all built plastic pitches which are locked up (and the police get phoned if you climb the fence to get in)

My parents still live in the house I grew up in, essentially right across the road from my old Primary School.  In my day it was the proper red ash pitch, an absolute leveler, and I maintain the reason why our school was relatively shite against the other ones in the area, and definitely the reason why I can't slide tackle worth a shit.  I've probably still got traces of the ash under my skin from the ridiculous spills I used to have most nights.  As you say, we used to play up there whenever it was light.  Only really needed 3 of us to go up, have a game of "records" and just boot a ball around.  Often managed to get games of up to 20 people playing into the one goal while another group got the other half.  It was just what we did when the weather wasn't shite, and the ash had turned into the Somme.  Should also say that it was surrounded by the old squared off metal fences behind each goal, and said fences had the regular habit of partially collapsing, leaving sharp, hard-to-spot metal sheets pointing out onto the pitch.  I ended up with a checkerboard of scratches after a particularly spirited run to the byline, and a friend's brother ended up with one particularly sharp piece entering his neck.  Ah, those were the days.

Anyway, I digress.  A few years ago they changed the ash pitch to what looks like a tremendous 3G surface.  Goals replaced, along with the fences.  Thankfully it doesn't seem like they're too precious about access (gate to the school is usually open, and it's barely taller than me if it wasn't), but even still it's rare to see it as busy as it was in our day.  My Dad says it gets there at times, but when I'm over, usually at weekends,  you'll usually have a couple of kids up there, often with a parent.   I'm not saying I wouldn't be the same when the wee man's older, in fact I'm looking forward to taking him up to where I used to score World Cup standard goals as the light began to fail and let him have a kick about, but there definitely doesn't seem to be the same attitude of just getting a ball and going out and playing.