Will Scotland ever be good again?

[ExiledSaint]

The last few weeks we've been spectators for yet another World Cup we failed to qualify for. Some of the "smaller" nations have played well and had some impressive results. Belgium's Golden Generation have only just missed out on the Final, and Iceland gave a good account of themselves.

I used those 2 as examples as they have shown amazing progress due to an overhaul of youth development, patience and quality coaching. 

So my question is; will we ever be dining at the big table again, and will the changes we've implemented in the youth setup ever bear fruit?

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

Becoming good would prove to be nothing more than the most laughable waste of time as we inevitably slump back to being hopelessly shite again.

 

We. Are. Finished.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2018 by Barry Ferguson's Hat

[itzdrk]

Yes. 

[GordonS]

Will we ever make it to the top table again?

Yes.

But in response to the question in the title, will we ever be good again?

When have Scotland ever been good?

Scotland have never achieved anything of any note. How many traditional footballing countries have never played a single knock-out match in a tournament? England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, East Germany, West Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, USSR, Ukraine, Russia, Japan, South Korea, North Korea, Australia, Saudi Arabia, USA, Mexico, Costa Rica, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru, Senegal, Ghana, Nigeria, Morocco, Cameroon and Algeria have all achieved more in football than Scotland. That's 56 countries who have made the knock-out matches in the World Cup or the European Championship. Most of those European countries similar in stature to Scotland have done it many times, and most have gone beyond. Sixteen European countries have played in major finals and at least a further six have made a major semi-final.

It's a myth that Scotland have ever been any good at international football. We're down with Finland and Albania among the established countries who've never done anything in their whole history. 

But aye, we won a friendly of no consequence 3-2 in 1967 so we must have been great.

[Lurkst]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

But aye, we won a friendly of no consequence 3-2 in 1967 so we must have been great.

It was actually a European Championship qualifier, but apart from that good post.

 

[Marten]

I don't see why not. Plenty of nations that are now good (and with good I mean at least regularly qualifying for tournaments) were completely rubbish in the past. Obviously, major reforms are needed and it might take a long time, but one day Scotland should at least be at the "good" level again.

[ShaggysBeard]

Depends what you mean by good. And who knows what the future of Scottish football will be? The will is there.

Wales made a semi final of the European Championships two years ago, why can't we do something similar in the future?

And in any case FIFA seem desperate to pile as much shite nations into the World Cup as possible these days. When it goes up to 48 in 2026 the amount of utter pish teams at the finals will be infuriating but at least Scotland might be on of them.

[Estragon]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

It's a myth that Scotland have ever been any good at international football. We're down with Finland and Albania among the established countries who've never done anything in their whole history. 

Number of successful qualifications;

Albania = 1

Finland = 0

Scotland = 10

I'm not suggesting we're amazing, but this discussion really isn't helped by ludicrous exaggeration in one direction or another.

[Peppino Impastato]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

Will we ever make it to the top table again?

Yes.

But in response to the question in the title, will we ever be good again?

When have Scotland ever been good?

Scotland have never achieved anything of any note. How many traditional footballing countries have never played a single knock-out match in a tournament? England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, East Germany, West Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, USSR, Ukraine, Russia, Japan, South Korea, North Korea, Australia, Saudi Arabia, USA, Mexico, Costa Rica, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru, Senegal, Ghana, Nigeria, Morocco, Cameroon and Algeria have all achieved more in football than Scotland. That's 56 countries who have made the knock-out matches in the World Cup or the European Championship. Most of those European countries similar in stature to Scotland have done it many times, and most have gone beyond. Sixteen European countries have played in major finals and at least a further six have made a major semi-final.

It's a myth that Scotland have ever been any good at international football. We're down with Finland and Albania among the established countries who've never done anything in their whole history. 

But aye, we won a friendly of no consequence 3-2 in 1967 so we must have been great.

No voter found

[SpoonTon]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

Will we ever make it to the top table again?

Yes.

But in response to the question in the title, will we ever be good again?

When have Scotland ever been good?

Scotland have never achieved anything of any note. How many traditional footballing countries have never played a single knock-out match in a tournament? England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, East Germany, West Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, USSR, Ukraine, Russia, Japan, South Korea, North Korea, Australia, Saudi Arabia, USA, Mexico, Costa Rica, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru, Senegal, Ghana, Nigeria, Morocco, Cameroon and Algeria have all achieved more in football than Scotland. That's 56 countries who have made the knock-out matches in the World Cup or the European Championship. Most of those European countries similar in stature to Scotland have done it many times, and most have gone beyond. Sixteen European countries have played in major finals and at least a further six have made a major semi-final.

It's a myth that Scotland have ever been any good at international football. We're down with Finland and Albania among the established countries who've never done anything in their whole history. 

But aye, we won a friendly of no consequence 3-2 in 1967 so we must have been great.

 

Scotland and West Germany were the only European sides to play in the five world cups from 1974 to 1990. Despite underachieving at some of those tournaments (and not having a good record for qualifying for Euros) it shows that we were a good side who could stop the likes of Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Portugal, and France from qualifying for World Cups. 

We could argue all day about what 'good' means in terms of international football, but I'd like to get back to a place where we are actually feared in a qualification group - that would be good. No-one is worried about drawing Scotland right now. 

[Estragon]

We just won 50% of our qualifiers for the first time in a decade - the trajectory is upward.

We're still a bit pish - but 6-8 years ago we were totally pish.

[GordonS]

6 hours ago, Lurkst said:

It was actually a European Championship qualifier, but apart from that good post.

True. Though we were so 'good' that we didn't qualify for that either.

Nobody should give a shit about one-off wins in qualifiers we didn't qualify from. That's just accepting failure.

52 minutes ago, ShaggysBeard said:

Depends what you mean by good. And who knows what the future of Scottish football will be? The will is there.

Wales made a semi final of the European Championships two years ago, why can't we do something similar in the future?

And in any case FIFA seem desperate to pile as much shite nations into the World Cup as possible these days. When it goes up to 48 in 2026 the amount of utter pish teams at the finals will be infuriating but at least Scotland might be on of them.

UEFA is only getting three more places, up from 13 to 16. A better chance, but we haven't made the last 16 in qualifying since 1996.

16 minutes ago, Estragon said:

Number of successful qualifications;

Albania = 1

Finland = 0

Scotland = 10

I'm not suggesting we're amazing, but this discussion really isn't helped by ludicrous exaggeration in one direction or another.

If you regard qualifying as 'good', then fine. But I don't.

Finland and Albania are the least unsuccessful European countries, apart from Scotland, never to have played a knock-out match. They are absolutely who we can compare ourselves to.

14 minutes ago, SpoonTon said:

Scotland and West Germany were the only European sides to play in the five world cups from 1974 to 1990. Despite underachieving at some of those tournaments (and not having a good record for qualifying for Euros) it shows that we were a good side who could stop the likes of Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Portugal, and France from qualifying for World Cups. 

We could argue all day about what 'good' means in terms of international football, but I'd like to get back to a place where we are actually feared in a qualification group - that would be good. No-one is worried about drawing Scotland right now. 

Why did we have such a good qualifying record and such a terrible record in finals?

I reckon it's because we were a nightmare to play against at Hampden. We hardly ever lost competitive matches at home - we often won all of our home qualifiers - and that's what got us into finals. It was an intimidating place to come, but it's not any more.

Incidentally, those countries we finished ahead of in qualifying, they were all going through weak periods. France didn't qualify for '94 either. 

[craigkillie]

8 hours ago, GordonS said:

Will we ever make it to the top table again?

Yes.

But in response to the question in the title, will we ever be good again?

When have Scotland ever been good?

Scotland have never achieved anything of any note. How many traditional footballing countries have never played a single knock-out match in a tournament? England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, East Germany, West Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, USSR, Ukraine, Russia, Japan, South Korea, North Korea, Australia, Saudi Arabia, USA, Mexico, Costa Rica, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Colombia, Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru, Senegal, Ghana, Nigeria, Morocco, Cameroon and Algeria have all achieved more in football than Scotland. That's 56 countries who have made the knock-out matches in the World Cup or the European Championship. Most of those European countries similar in stature to Scotland have done it many times, and most have gone beyond. Sixteen European countries have played in major finals and at least a further six have made a major semi-final.

It's a myth that Scotland have ever been any good at international football. We're down with Finland and Albania among the established countries who've never done anything in their whole history. 

But aye, we won a friendly of no consequence 3-2 in 1967 so we must have been great.

"Making the knockout stages of tournaments" as a measure isn't really perfect though, given how the tournaments have changed in format over time.  We've reached the last 16 of the World Cup on several occasions, and reached the last 8 of the Euros in 1992, but at that time those were the group stages due to the smaller finals.  It doesn't really make it any less of an achievement to have got that far.

[DanMc99]

f**k knows, it'd be nice to have a top class centre mid or a striker that guaranteed us plenty of goals but doesn't seem to be anyone coming through that'll provide that

[The Moonster]

22 minutes ago, GordonS said:

True. Though we were so 'good' that we didn't qualify for that either.

Nobody should give a shit about one-off wins in qualifiers we didn't qualify from. That's just accepting failure.

UEFA is only getting three more places, up from 13 to 16. A better chance, but we haven't made the last 16 in qualifying since 1996.

If you regard qualifying as 'good', then fine. But I don't.

Finland and Albania are the least unsuccessful European countries, apart from Scotland, never to have played a knock-out match. They are absolutely who we can compare ourselves to.

Why did we have such a good qualifying record and such a terrible record in finals?

I reckon it's because we were a nightmare to play against at Hampden. We hardly ever lost competitive matches at home - we often won all of our home qualifiers - and that's what got us into finals. It was an intimidating place to come, but it's not any more.

Incidentally, those countries we finished ahead of in qualifying, they were all going through weak periods. France didn't qualify for '94 either. 

You sound a right bag of fun.

[SpoonTon]

32 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Why did we have such a good qualifying record and such a terrible record in finals?

I reckon it's because we were a nightmare to play against at Hampden. We hardly ever lost competitive matches at home - we often won all of our home qualifiers - and that's what got us into finals. It was an intimidating place to come, but it's not any more.

Incidentally, those countries we finished ahead of in qualifying, they were all going through weak periods. France didn't qualify for '94 either. 

We also had good players. 

You can say that other teams had weak periods, etc., but we still consistently got there. I don't think many are under the illusion that we were world beaters, but we had good players and were consistently competitive at a good level. How many other nations make five world cups in a row? 

It's not 'make Scotland great again.' We were never great, but we were good. 

[woof!]

Undoubtedly we have a generation of players emerging who are better than before. If our best 11 now started the previous campaign we would have qualified. Croatia have a population of 3 million. Don’t tolerate negativity.

[woof!]

3 hours ago, DanMc99 said:

f**k knows, it'd be nice to have a top class centre mid or a striker that guaranteed us plenty of goals but doesn't seem to be anyone coming through that'll provide that

we do have a top class centre mid coming through. We have two, possibly three.

[DanMc99]

17 minutes ago, woof! said:

we do have a top class centre mid coming through. We have two, possibly three.

top class?

[Shandon Par]

Does anything beyond hard work really hold us back? And not just with the ball but life in general. Andy Robertson, for example, comes across as probably the brightest lad in the squad and had plans to go to uni before his move to Dundee Utd. It must take some level of intelligence to focus on game plans and instructions from someone like Klopp. So many Scottish players are socially awkward and can't seem to cope with life outside their circle of mates. In employment terms, football is a global market and our players don't really come across as being physically or mentally prepared to measure up to the best. Robertson strikes me as someone who could easily have a career in broadcasting or the media, such is his confident, easy manner with his superstar team mates. 

It's not a new phenomenon for Scottish coaches to look abroad at what more successful nations do but a coach only has a young player for so long. A bigger focus on sport from a young age and making academic work mandatory alongside sport could churn out players more prepared for life outside Scotland (or help drive up our own standards). 

Look at Lukaku, for example. Speaks five or six languages. Finished his high school diploma whilst playing for Anderlecht and couldn't play on a Saturday if the grades were not right. 

Kompany - studied for a Masters whilst playing in England. 

Ronaldo- look at the phsique. You don't look like that from a couple of hours's training a few times a week. 

The boys we churn out would find it hard to relate to guys like this. We're maybe a bit too afraid to look hard at ourselves and accept that it's Scotland as a country that's failing its young players, rather than there being anything inherently wrong with Scottish players. There's loads of good young Scottish players coming through but how many really have the interpersonal skills, the determination and intelligence to really hack it at a top European club? If we're really serious about churning out top players we need kids playing a couple of hours before school, during the school day, a couple of hours after school, studying hard and becoming rounded individuals, not just the best in their class at football. 

Look at the guy who is probably the best pound for pound boxer in the world and he's not hitting a bag all day but doing all manner of sports and mental challenges to prepare him for competition:

http://www.espn.co.uk/boxing/story/_/id/21681715/training-just-piece-puzzle-vasiliy-lomachenko-lomachenko-vs-rigondeaux-espn

I'm not involved in kids' football, though I have seen kids' football teams come in to train in a sport I've done a bit more of and have been amazed at how lazy the lads are and how so many of them have an attitude that they're something special just because at 14 or 15 they're doing well in their peer group. 

But maybe we don't want to change much? I enjoy seeing my own club side play. Plenty of Scottish players make a very good living from football. It's not as if we're utterly hopeless but I don't think you have to look too far at why we can't cut it any higher than the level at which we operate. 

 

TL/DR Version - need a new generation of Jim McLeans.