I'll Have What ......

[GordonS]

13 minutes ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

Sorry, but that’s a bit of a cop out. 

Not remotely. The point is that other countries have worked it out and we should stop talking to each other and start copying them.

In Iceland, it's 19: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2018/05/11/story-behind-icelands-assault-world-football/ 

"According to Thorlakur Arnason, head of youth development at KSI, it’s one of the reasons why Icelandic clubs treat everyone the same. ‘I am absolutely against early selection,' he says. 'You lose players. An early developer will grow the most between 12 and 13; a late developer will grow the most between 15 and 17.’ The late developer is cut adrift in an early selection system. Talent is lost."

I dunno what it is in Belgium or France or elsewhere, you could try Google. Or the SFA.

FWIW, in Scottish club rugby it's up to and including U18. I was shite at football so I played youth rugby, and the difference between that and football was staggering. Scotland punch waaaaay above their weight in rugby and the youth coaching is why. We played every team in our area but the results weren't recorded, you didn't know any other team's result and there was no league table. Matches were split into thirds so that there was more chance for team talks. Every player got at least one-third of every match, regardless of standard. We'd play three consecutive Saturdays, then every fourth Saturday there would be a skills day, with no physical training, just handling and kicking skills. Over the summer the coaches would come in to take us for skills work.

It was well below what Iceland does for football, but it was miles ahead of what my mates playing football were getting. The best footballer I knew growing up, who dominated an SFA Youth Cup final and assisted 6 goals, played two full size matches every Saturday and one on a Sunday every weekend of every season from the age of about 11. He played for a club, his school and his Boys Brigade team. He used to win armfuls of medals and trophies, he had a huge board just for medals. He should have gone on to much better things but after spells at Morton and Clydebank he moved to Pollok, before drifting out of the game. The coaching he got growing up was only about winning, winning, winning, about keeping his position, not making mistakes, playing it safe, not trying anything he couldn't do. It was mental and it's still going on.

This is why we suck.

[GordonS]

10 minutes ago, Cerberus said:

The coaching is terrible, the weather is terrible, the diet is terrible but we have low expectations of ourself.
Scotland’s greatest achievement of the last 20 years was scoring 2 goals against England in a draw at home.

We also look up to a country who has equally low expectations. In the past 20 years France has been in 5 major finals, Italy, Germany and Spain have been in 3, while England, who ought to be comparable with those countries, went batshit crazy when they came through an easy quarter of the draw to make a solitary semi final. Football in Britain is really poor.

[DA Baracus]

I'm still laughing at folk making up shit about how kids aren't taught to be competitive when it's the exact opposite. Further, as various people have pointed out, with evidence to back it up, not being 'competitive' at youth levels is actually proven to be the way forward.

 

[GordonS]

Here's a great example. England are complaining about the timing of the European U19 finals, because it clashes with clubs' pre-season tours. But they're missing the point - the purpose of the U19s is to develop players, not to win the thing. If a player like Ben Foden is good enough to be in Man City's first team plans, then what is he learning in the U19s?  Belgium have a policy of never dropping back - if you move up to the U19s, U21s or full team, you don't drop back down again. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44832541 

[forameus]

14 hours ago, Zen Archer said:

I have a vague memory that one of their adverts had a tagline which was rather amusing 'They're so big you have to grin to get them in'

14 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

This is quite simply bollocks.

Kids (and probably boys especially) are naturally competitive anyway.

What they should be taught is not that winning their under 10 game on a Saturday is the be all and end all.

The aim of the game at that age is to enjoy it, to express themselves and also make sure they are trying to better themselves however small in each game. Teaching them that training during the week on a cold night is just as if not more important than the game on a Saturday at that age. That ‘success’ is not winning your under 10 game on a Saturday but that improving week on week, managing the little things like diet and how you train with a view to the long term is the ultimate goal.

This.  When I play football, I absolutely want to win, but I also know that if I don't it isn't the end of the world.  You can be competitive without it being the only thing that matters.  Certain coaches will take it too far - I was waiting for a work 11s game and there was a youth age group game going on.  No idea what age group as it was one of those games with hulking great kids with beards playing wee tiny guys.  Half-time whistle blew, and the coach screamed blue murder for his team to get over there.  He then bollocked them for 5 minutes before sending them back out.  Two minutes later one of their players had been offered to leave the pitch for a shocking tackle and dissent, with another quickly following him for sarcastically clapping and then talking back to the ref.  Those kinds of coaches could not get far enough to f**k for me.  But shockingly none of the parents on the side seemed to be batting an eyelid.  If it had been my son I'd be looking for another team for him where the coach wasn't a complete sociopath VL.

[Northboy]

11 hours ago, GordonS said:

It was well below what Iceland does for football, but it was miles ahead of what my mates playing football were getting. The best footballer I knew growing up, who dominated an SFA Youth Cup final and assisted 6 goals, played two full size matches every Saturday and one on a Sunday every weekend of every season from the age of about 11. He played for a club, his school and his Boys Brigade team. He used to win armfuls of medals and trophies, he had a huge board just for medals. He should have gone on to much better things but after spells at Morton and Clydebank he moved to Pollok, before drifting out of the game. The coaching he got growing up was only about winning, winning, winning, about keeping his position, not making mistakes, playing it safe, not trying anything he couldn't do. It was mental and it's still going on

I've long argued that the aim is not to produce good young players - it is to produce good 25 year old players. We can all look back at a long line of promising youngsters who ultimately didn't have a progressive long term career as a footballer. Successful sports people need a winning attitude but our approach is well behind modern motivational ideas. Particularly in other sports the focus is on achieving personal excellence and enjoying the challenge of competition rather than fear of losing.

[TheScarf]

On 11/07/2018 at 04:41, pleslie99 said:

Maybe if we allowed our young kids to experience winning from a young age and not just time on the park. Telling young kids that the score doesn't matter breeds a losing mentality. I'm all for getting kids involved but if they're shite they're shite, stop holding the good kids back.

Winning at all costs is the kind of mentality that's seen the Scotland national team get left behind.   'Fuck teaching them how to actually play the game,  we need to fucking win this league' - Every under 12 coach in Scotland.

 

[DA Baracus]

4 hours ago, Northboy said:

I've long argued that the aim is not to produce good young players - it is to produce good 25 year old players. We can all look back at a long line of promising youngsters who ultimately didn't have a progressive long term career as a footballer. Successful sports people need a winning attitude but our approach is well behind modern motivational ideas. Particularly in other sports the focus is on achieving personal excellence and enjoying the challenge of competition rather than fear of losing.

I think 25 is a bit far

[heedthebaa]

4 hours ago, forameus said:

 

This.  When I play football, I absolutely want to win, but I also know that if I don't it isn't the end of the world.  You can be competitive without it being the only thing that matters.  Certain coaches will take it too far - I was waiting for a work 11s game and there was a youth age group game going on.  No idea what age group as it was one of those games with hulking great kids with beards playing wee tiny guys.  Half-time whistle blew, and the coach screamed blue murder for his team to get over there.  He then bollocked them for 5 minutes before sending them back out.  Two minutes later one of their players had been offered to leave the pitch for a shocking tackle and dissent, with another quickly following him for sarcastically clapping and then talking back to the ref.  Those kinds of coaches could not get far enough to f**k for me.  But shockingly none of the parents on the side seemed to be batting an eyelid.  If it had been my son I'd be looking for another team for him where the coach wasn't a complete sociopath VL.

I coached kids football for 10 years and this type of shit is why I gave it up. I also had parents each coaching their own kids and standing screaming all frothy mouthed on the sidelines. It will take a massive effort to change the way we teach kids in this country 

[Dons_1988]

I coached kids football for 10 years and this type of shit is why I gave it up. I also had parents each coaching their own kids and standing screaming all frothy mouthed on the sidelines. It will take a massive effort to change the way we teach kids in this country 

It’s disgraceful.

I look back on my playing days as a kid and I cringe when I think back to the stuff that went on from parents and coaches. Parents starting on refs, other parents etc.

One of my teammates dads came into the changing room after the game, dragged his son out whilst shouting ‘you were a fucking disgrace today’.

At 10 years old a coach once told me to target an opposition player who was the biggest lad on the pitch and inevitably causing us a lot of problems.

I also spent 2 years in America due to my dads job as a 13 year old and their attitude to it is night and day. We trained 3 times a week and if you didn’t turn up you didn’t play at the weekend. The training was excellent, working on both technique and positional play.

In the off season and school holidays there was 2 weeks ‘pre season’ camp where we trained all day everyday including proper fitness workouts. We were advised on our diet. We were given ‘homework’ after training occasionally which would be a document on the merits of 4-4-2 for example, how it worked on and off the ball positionally etc. We were then tested on it at training by playing attack vs defence at walking pace to ensure that everyone understood their positions when the ball is being shifted across the pitch etc.

It really was light years ahead of Scotland.

[Monkey Tennis]

19 hours ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

You mentioned winning, i spoke about excellence and time with teachers (coaches). Read things properly before using language like bollocks, it just makes you look silly and reactive

You did refer earlier to the "school classes where children are encouraged not to achieve".  

I maintain that such a suggestion remains complete and unadulterated bollocks.

 

 

Got any evidence to support your claim yet?

 

[heedthebaa]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

 

It’s disgraceful.

I look back on my playing days as a kid and I cringe when I think back to the stuff that went on from parents and coaches. Parents starting on refs, other parents etc.

One of my teammates dads came into the changing room after the game, dragged his son out whilst shouting ‘you were a fucking disgrace today’.

At 10 years old a coach once told me to target an opposition player who was the biggest lad on the pitch and inevitably causing us a lot of problems.

I also spent 2 years in America due to my dads job as a 13 year old and their attitude to it is night and day. We trained 3 times a week and if you didn’t turn up you didn’t play at the weekend. The training was excellent, working on both technique and positional play.

In the off season and school holidays there was 2 weeks ‘pre season’ camp where we trained all day everyday including proper fitness workouts. We were advised on our diet. We were given ‘homework’ after training occasionally which would be a document on the merits of 4-4-2 for example, how it worked on and off the ball positionally etc. We were then tested on it at training by playing attack vs defence at walking pace to ensure that everyone understood their positions when the ball is being shifted across the pitch etc.

It really was light years ahead of Scotland.

 

All I wanted was to get a kid at the start of a season and see an improvement in him/her in all aspects of the game (technique, attitude etc) by the end. Get them hooked on something that they could enjoy for years. I was always fair on the players, regardless of their then ability, as most level headed people know some kids don’t show their potential till later. I’ve seen coaches going toe to toe on the pitch, a coach clothesline a 15 year old winger, an U14  drive away in his car after a game  The end for me was when I laid out a coach for threatening my 16 year old keeper, said coach had been sent off for screaming abuse and took it out on the lad. I said if needed I would still ref games, I lasted one game. 

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

You did refer earlier to the "school classes where children are encouraged not to achieve".  

I maintain that such a suggestion remains complete and unadulterated bollocks.

 

 

Got any evidence to support your claim yet?

 

And I don’t agree. Time not spent on helping any child to attain excellence wherever they can is why we as a country will struggle to achieve. There are classes all over where additional time is given to those who struggle to learn or do not want to learn. If you haven’t witnessed that then you are indeed fortunate.

[BFTD]

Might be being whooshed here, but why would you give additional time to kids that are already grasping the subject?  

[Monkey Tennis]

9 hours ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

And I don’t agree. Time not spent on helping any child to attain excellence wherever they can is why we as a country will struggle to achieve. There are classes all over where additional time is given to those who struggle to learn or do not want to learn. If you haven’t witnessed that then you are indeed fortunate.

I asked for evidence, rather than a simple re-statement of your dubious claim.

Are you really suggesting that the fact pupils with additional needs are offered support, is holding us back in terms of achievement?

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

7 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I asked for evidence, rather than a simple re-statement of your dubious claim.

Are you really suggesting that the fact pupils with additional needs are offered support, is holding us back in terms of achievement?

Are you suggesting we are attaining the highest levels of achievement, and if not what is holding us back?

 

This is like tennis with a monkey.

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

7 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I asked for evidence, rather than a simple re-statement of your dubious claim.

Are you really suggesting that the fact pupils with additional needs are offered support, is holding us back in terms of achievement?

That’s a pretty cheap attempt at turning this little debate into some sort of moral high ground position taking, so if that,s where you are headed I will leave you to it. Remember also, this site is about opinion and demanding proof of back up to that opinion is a bit of a waste of time. 

[Monkey Tennis]

2 hours ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

That’s a pretty cheap attempt at turning this little debate into some sort of moral high ground position taking, so if that,s where you are headed I will leave you to it. Remember also, this site is about opinion and demanding proof of back up to that opinion is a bit of a waste of time. 

It's nothing of the sort - it's a direct attempt to tackle what you were specifically saying.

If you're unable to support your drivel, it's perhaps best not to give voice to it in the first place.  

Absolutely laughable.

[Raidernation]

Might be being whooshed here, but why would you give additional time to kids that are already grasping the subject?  

Umm Dave, because we don’t just need to support those with needs that struggle but also those with needs that excel so they can excel further.
Maybe not explaining myself clearly here, but as a teacher in Scotland it was frustrating that the same level of support, encouragement, time and money wasn’t spent on those that could go from really good to exceptional as was spent on those that were at the other end of the scale.
I’m not being elitist, EVERY student should have access to resources to help them be as good as they can.
Strangely, for a country with our history of achievement we now seem to look like that as a bad thing!


Rant over

[pandarilla]

Umm Dave, because we don’t just need to support those with needs that struggle but also those with needs that excel so they can excel further.
Maybe not explaining myself clearly here, but as a teacher in Scotland it was frustrating that the same level of support, encouragement, time and money wasn’t spent on those that could go from really good to exceptional as was spent on those that were at the other end of the scale.
I’m not being elitist, EVERY student should have access to resources to help them be as good as they can.
Strangely, for a country with our history of achievement we now seem to look like that as a bad thing!


Rant over

But resources are limited, and always will be.

Some kids have been dealt a shit hand in life and it's only right that they get a bit more support.

Some schools do need to push those in the middle and the top a bit more but in my experience they're well aware of that too.