Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 minute ago, RH33 said:

There was a parent at the kids last school who was given every support option going in terms support and investment. The drugs came back every time and sadly she was found dead in her (alleged) dealers flat. Three kids left behind.

Someone else I knows family member was found dead a couple of weeks ago, looks likely street valium was involved.

Decimalisation isn't a vote winner as we still have a very right wing Christian, vocal minority which means it won't happen, along with decriminalising prostitution. People view those doing both as scum.

There will also be the nimby objections to shooting rooms and such like which will also make it difficult.

The pressure put on NHS mental health service from drug and alcohol.dependancy is huge, to the point they struggle (in my area and experience} to provide effective services to anyone else.

Change needs to happen but it'll be at glacial pace as there is not the desire to help people perceived as 'scum'.

Yeh some people use drugs and despite the best efforts of family/supporters they die, its horrible, its for me however a physical expression of people who have significant mental trauma, sometimes its just so profound that the numbness the drugs provide is all they can do to cope. Ive met people who’s history of sexual and physical abuse as kids was so profound that you can understand why they use drugs to block it out, its so hard to help them, you wait for counselling or a cahms referral in Scotland and it can be over a year. But then someone offers you an easy way out, i can see why people do it. 
 

Street valium is the cause in just about any drug death ive been aware of in the last 2 years or so working in a very deprived area. People blame the police etc, but ive said how easy it is to just shift the pill press or factory from place to place using sammies, the big dogs rarely get caught meaning the supply is never actually stopped. Ive got so much sympathy for drug users, I hate the dehumanising language (and ive probably slipped up and used it myself) but more so the way they are treated in society, they are human and need help. 
 

The consumption rooms one i agree, the nimby factor is massive, maybe the solution is these mobile rooms to stop an area developing a stigma. 
 

It doesnt hurt to treat people as decent humans regardless of their choices, im angrier at the people who hurt them in the first place than drug users themselves. 
 

We have a staggering level of under investment in mental health services and to be honest without massive investment its never going to change, completely agree with your points. 

[Arthur daley]

47 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

How to explain the Welsh miracle of lower drug deaths but no powers to open consumption centres? 

https://www.wedinos.org
this site has been run in Wales for many years ,they stopped testing steroids years ago but ,As it  was a favourite on many steroid forums in the uk for testing steroids to see the active ingredient ,as many steroids are fakes or made in ugl ‘s ,still a fairly good idea as at least people know what chemical /drug is in the sample they send anonymously (not saying that would make taking it any safer but ) 

[parsforlife]

Is there any legal procedure around how safe the drug someone is supplying is?

I.e are you given a worse sentence if you sell street valium rather than pharmaceutical?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

6 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Is there any legal procedure around how safe the drug someone is supplying is?

I.e are you given a worse sentence if you sell street valium rather than pharmaceutical?

Drugs are graded class A,B,C  (A being yer heroin, cocaine, ecstasy etc, B being Cannabis benzos and C being lesser drugs). 

unfortunately though street valium covers benzos which are class B, because actual benzos, pharma produced benzos arent anywhere near as deadly as the street valium. Which means when it goes to court the sheriff has to pass the same sentence for cannabis supply despite no one actually dying from cannabis (that said i still think theres a significant risk of psychosis but ultimately lower the thc content and lets have a conversation about legalising it). Also the threshold for what constitutes a ‘supply amount’ of benzo’s is hundreds of tablets, so people caught may get a wee fine and the charge changed to simple possession.
There is however a charge for supplying drugs which lead to the death of someone, the difficulty there is proving it.  

Edited July 30, 2021 by Inanimate Carbon Rod

[RH33]

5 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Yeh some people use drugs and despite the best efforts of family/supporters they die, its horrible, its for me however a physical expression of people who have significant mental trauma, sometimes its just so profound that the numbness the drugs provide is all they can do to cope. Ive met people who’s history of sexual and physical abuse as kids was so profound that you can understand why they use drugs to block it out, its so hard to help them, you wait for counselling or a cahms referral in Scotland and it can be over a year. But then someone offers you an easy way out, i can see why people do it. 
 

Street valium is the cause in just about any drug death ive been aware of in the last 2 years or so working in a very deprived area. People blame the police etc, but ive said how easy it is to just shift the pill press or factory from place to place using sammies, the big dogs rarely get caught meaning the supply is never actually stopped. Ive got so much sympathy for drug users, I hate the dehumanising language (and ive probably slipped up and used it myself) but more so the way they are treated in society, they are human and need help. 
 

The consumption rooms one i agree, the nimby factor is massive, maybe the solution is these mobile rooms to stop an area developing a stigma. 
 

It doesnt hurt to treat people as decent humans regardless of their choices, im angrier at the people who hurt them in the first place than drug users themselves. 
 

We have a staggering level of under investment in mental health services and to be honest without massive investment its never going to change, completely agree with your points. 

My kids were in school in Ferguslie so you'll not find a much more deprived area. The really sad thing was you could see why the cycle repeats itself generation after generation. Kids suffer early loss parent.....already in deprived area....education was already suffering at p3...... lost by time hit.high school.

I think I'm lucky in that when I suffered significant trauma,(clearly that wasn't lucky) I had years of mental health issues behind me and coping skills, along with GPs, therapist (private and not cheap) and couple friends who held me together. But if you have got that and some street dealer spots a vulnerable person its easy to see why it happens.

 

[parsforlife]

2 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Drugs are graded class A,B,C  (A being yer heroin, cocaine, ecstasy etc, B being Cannabis benzos and C being stuff like mushrooms). 

unfortunately though street valium covers benzos which are class B, because actual benzos, pharma produced benzos arent anywhere near as deadly as the street valium. Which means when it goes to court the sheriff has to pass the same sentence for cannabis supply despite no one actually dying from cannabis (that said i still think theres a significant risk of psychosis but ultimately lower the thc content and lets have a conversation about legalising it). Also the threshold for what constitutes a ‘supply amount’ of benzo’s is hundreds of tablets, so people caught may get a wee fine and the charge changed to simple possession.
There is however a charge for supplying drugs which lead to the death of someone, the difficulty there is proving it.  

Yeah I know about the class system,  its embracingly flawed and completely unscientific.  

I was more aiming at the if there is any effort to test someone's supply and sentence them based on the results,  Make it a consideration along with previous convictions etc.  

Proving it caused the death sounds difficult.  Simply proving you supply drugs with a higher risk of death seems alot easier.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

14 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Yeah I know about the class system,  its embracingly flawed and completely unscientific.  

I was more aiming at the if there is any effort to test someone's supply and sentence them based on the results,  Make it a consideration along with previous convictions etc.  

Proving it caused the death sounds difficult.  Simply proving you supply drugs with a higher risk of death seems alot easier.

Its not necessarily difficult to prove that drugs caused the death, the toxicology and post mortem do that, its proving who sold the drugs, getting witnesses to speak up etc. Everyone’s outraged when a teenager dies from a bad ecstasy tablet, but can the pals who are so outraged speak up in court? Maybe seen as a bit harsh but thats what happens a lot, you need the evidence to prosecute. 
Drugs like diazepam and cocaine are all routinely sent to labs, but essentially all it does is confirm the type of drug, etc. Its quite complicated and I need to watch what is said here but its frustrating. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

It's actually the perfect Scottish political issue. Scotgov can point the finger at Westminster and say the powers aren't devolved. The opposition can blame Sturgeon and the SNP. Both of them alongside Middle Scotland can all wring their hands, shake their heads and agree how terrible it is and that 'something should be done'.

Nothing then gets done because nobody is brave enough, no one wants to lose votes, no one wants to devolve powers, no one wants 'their tax money paying for junkies' needles' and ultimately, this issue doesn't really affect anyone who 'matters' in civic Scottish society.

 

[Granny Danger]

4 minutes ago, Frank Sobotka said:

It's actually the perfect Scottish political issue. Scotgov can point the finger at Westminster and say the powers aren't devolved. The opposition can blame Sturgeon and the SNP. Both of them alongside Middle Scotland can all wring their hands, shake their heads and agree how terrible it is and that 'something should be done'.

Nothing then gets done because nobody is brave enough, no one wants to lose votes, no one wants to devolve powers, no one wants 'their tax money paying for junkies' needles' and ultimately, this issue doesn't really affect anyone who 'matters' in civic Scottish society.

 

I think that is both cynical and inaccurate.  I believe if the powers were devolved there would be significant pressure on the SG from both within the SNP and the wider public to take a more proactive and innovative approach.

 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

1 minute ago, Granny Danger said:

I think that is both cynical and inaccurate.  I believe if the powers were devolved there would be significant pressure on the SG from both within the SNP and the wider public to take a more proactive and innovative approach.

 

There is nothing stopping the SG taking a more proactive and innovative approach right now.

[sparky88]

3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I think that is both cynical and inaccurate.  I believe if the powers were devolved there would be significant pressure on the SG from both within the SNP and the wider public to take a more proactive and innovative approach.

 

They would still blame Westminster if drug deaths didn't fall. And of course, their massive poll lead would be unaffected because to most of their voters they are the Second Independence Referendum Party. I think we are quickly reaching the point where the opportunity to bin the SNP is itself becoming an argument for independence. 

 

[tamthebam]

3 minutes ago, Frank Sobotka said:

There is nothing stopping the SG taking a more proactive and innovative approach right now.

Supposing the SG legalised heroin and allowed it to be sold under licence or at least allowed it to be prescribed as pre 1971 how long would it be before Westminster stepped in?

[D Angelo Barksdale]

13 minutes ago, tamthebam said:

Supposing the SG legalised heroin and allowed it to be sold under licence or at least allowed it to be prescribed as pre 1971 how long would it be before Westminster stepped in?

This would be at the more radical end of action open to the SG and would probably provoke serious push back from Westminster.

There's quite a bit of legislative space between doing nothing and legalising heroin. 

[Monkey Tennis]

2 hours ago, RH33 said:

Decimalisation isn't a vote winner 

I don't know.  Did it do Ted Heath that much harm?

[Monkey Tennis]

This issue is obviously more complex and much wider ranging than that of knife crime.

Huge progress was made there, however, by treating it as a matter requiring education and support, rather than purely crime based interventions.  It's simplistic to say that's the solution here, but steps do need taken further in this direction. 

It requires a different approach, certainly, but above all it requires funding.  That's politically challenging, but the current situation is too, and it's doing terrible damage to individuals, their families and wider communities.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Monkey Tennis

[No_Problemo]

Yes - more could be done with independence/more powers and I would far rather we had control of that, but there are so many different areas linked to this, in which the Scottish Government is failing. 

So much more work needs done before children are born, never mind once they are - early intervention, a working CAMHS etc etc. As they grow older, frankly people stop giving any sort of a f**k and it grows from there. Try getting mental health support for a 18/19 year old who, for example, has been in care and is traumatised by their experiences - non existent. Of course these traumatised kids who have been sexually, physically abused etc then begin to commit low level crimes - our justice system in its infinite wisdom wants to punish them - no thought to the underlying issues - just chuck them in Polmont. They come out in a far worse state, a cycle of crime often begins - addiction, have their own kids, in and out of jail and the cycle continues.

There are several “trauma aware” lawyers now who I follow on twitter, constantly banging their heads off a wall trying to get any sort of change in our justice system. The justice system is almost a last chance saloon to get people the help they need, we don’t use it remotely well enough. 

[Aubrey Maturin]

On 15/12/2020 at 12:47, Tynierose said:

I'd suggest legalising the use of illicit drugs, following leads from  countries like Portugal that have safe areas to inject,clean needles, more rehab beds.

The Road to Recovery project that was a key government policy has not delivered.  Successive scottish governments have failed in this regard

We need to follow a biopsychosocial model approach, absinthe aims do not work.

Having previously worked in addictions for ten years and in custodial settings the present system just doesn't meet the needs of what is actually required.

Don't just give people a substitute prescription  then pap them back into their life of deprivation.  There needs to be proper behavioural support, peer support, opportunities for training etc.  Its more than just treating with medications, it needs life change.

Time for an urgent rethink.

 

Oh look still no change.

[No_Problemo]

1 hour ago, Tynierose said:

Oh look still no change.

It is depressing as f**k, but I don’t know when we will actually see anything but lip service with any of this. 

[parsforlife]

11 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

It is depressing as f**k, but I don’t know when we will actually see anything but lip service with any of this. 

Nobody has the balls to say it.  Something so basic as treating addiction as a health issue and not a criminal one is apparently radical extremist view point.  

The fact we (society, the forum is more progressive) has the debate lying on if we turn a blind eye to 1(one) mobile safe space is insane.  

[No_Problemo]

1 minute ago, parsforlife said:

Nobody has the balls to say it.  Something so basic as treating addiction as a health issue and not a criminal one is apparently radical extremist view point.  

The fact we (society, the forum is more progressive) has the debate lying on if we turn a blind eye to 1(one) mobile safe space is insane.  

Yes, all too scored to stick their head up and educate people that the “junkies” they all go on about, are the same kids they would sympathise with if they heard their stories just a few years earlier. 

I don’t see very much talk at all of the justice side of things - just that we don’t have the powers to do anything about it. We don’t have the power to change legislation etc, but we do have the power to change how our justice system deals with vulnerable and traumatised individuals - and we do very little about that - shouting slogans like tough on crime instead etc etc etc.