What is the point of Labour ?

[Salt n Vinegar]

5 minutes ago, Zern said:

Independence is one route. The MMP system is far more representative than FPTP already, and if there is a plurality of support it can get done. Also depends if there is enough dissatisfaction with the MMP and STV systems currently in use.

For Westminster? Your guess is as good as mine. With the two main parties against, almost impossible.

What's weird is that some form of PR has been in use in various parts of the UK now for decades. It is neither controversial or radical to propose reform of the electoral system to be more representative. I don't get the reluctance.

 

Both the "big parties" value the chance of absolute power being in their hands, even for a brief period, far more than they value that old 'democracy' BS. 

[Zern]

38 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

Both the "big parties" value the chance of absolute power being in their hands, even for a brief period, far more than they value that old 'democracy' BS. 

Sadly true. I have no doubt that Labour is already compiling a list of future peers to be elevated. They are up to their elbow in the establishment.

It's very short-sighted of Labour to ignore electoral reform. If the long-term goal is EU membership then it is one of series a necessary steps they need to take to change the Westminster system. They won't allow UK re-entry as is. That ship sailed 50 years ago.

[lichtgilphead]

3 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

PR is a no brainier for anyone remotely interested in fair representation.

How do we get it though?  It will never suit Labour, the Tories or the SNP up here.

That would be the same SNP that are currently in Government under a PR system 'up here'?

That would be the same SNP that support reform of Westminster to abolish FPTP?

That would be the same SNP that would have a better chance of holding the balance of power at Westminster under a PR system than they would under FPTP?

As you say, it's a no-brainer for anyone interested in fair representation. Obviously, fair representation doesn't interest Labour or the Tories.

Remind me, CS, which Yoon party do you currently vote for?

 

[Guest]

Starmer has now called for Waters to be cancelled. 

That's a quote from the Independent. He also had a letter correspondence with the head of The Board of Deputies of British Jews.

Edited June 9, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Good. Waters is a well known Nazi.

[Molotov]

Commentary from FT on Roger Waters recent shows. 
https://www.ft.com/content/140cc3d7-0a3e-4bba-9c72-38fb498f58e2

Waters grandfather died in WW1. His father died in WW2 when he was 5 months old. The guy fcuking loathes the politicians and leaders whose decisions cost the lives of so many innocent people. 

The imagery, music and lyrics from The Wall represents some very complex details to his childhood and his rise to stardom.

Should we also ban all images and music of Lemmy who collected and wore German WW2 memorabilia. Another who hated the establishment and religion for the insanity of war.

Maybe it’s a bass guitar thing. After all Sid Vicious wore Nazi insignia for shock value to cover up his limitations as a musician.

Are we now to ban every WW1 and WW2 films from being broadcast and cancel all the actors who have ever portrayed a Nazi?

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Molotov

[Fullerene]

17 hours ago, Zern said:

It's very short-sighted of Labour to ignore electoral reform. If the long-term goal is EU membership then it is one of series a necessary steps they need to take to change the Westminster system. They won't allow UK re-entry as is. That ship sailed 50 years ago.

That is it.  The EU are not interesting in discussing the UK going back into the EU if there is a possibility that a subsequent Tory government will just cancel the talks.  It will only happen if every likely government is in favour of the idea.

With FPTP, the Tories are always wary of being outflanked by the Nigel Farage Party and will always be more extreme as a result.

Hopefully with PR, the Tories will still be detestable but the worse elements would not have so much influence.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

1 hour ago, Fullerene said:

That is it.  The EU are not interesting in discussing the UK going back into the EU if there is a possibility that a subsequent Tory government will just cancel the talks.  It will only happen if every likely government is in favour of the idea.

With FPTP, the Tories are always wary of being outflanked by the Nigel Farage Party and will always be more extreme as a result.

Hopefully with PR, the Tories will still be detestable but the worse elements would not have so much influence.

I just can’t ever see us trying to get back into the EU.

Such a move would be electoral suicide for both the Tories and Labour.

Edited June 9, 2023 by CarrbridgeSaintee

[StellarHibee]

13 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

I just can’t ever see us trying to get back into the EU.

Such a move would be electoral suicide for both the Tories and Labour.

Based on what? The polling suggests that a clear majority of the UK population now view Brexit as a joke. Labours support for brexit under Keir Starmer has nothing to do with public opinion.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

There's likely to be a convergence with the EU and all the associated bodies over time without actually rejoining, which would probably require another referendum.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

26 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

Based on what? The polling suggests that a clear majority of the UK population now view Brexit as a joke. Labours support for brexit under Keir Starmer has nothing to do with public opinion.

I think it does.

Both parties need the red wall, which is largely pro-Brexit.

A lot of remainers who believe in democracy won't want to revisit the issue either, hence the Lib Dems' campaign of a 'people's vote' not being a vote-winner.

Opinion polling was too generous to Remain at the time of the EU referendum, so it's probably fair to say there's a good chance it still could be.

[StellarHibee]

7 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

I think it does.

Both parties need the red wall, which is largely pro-Brexit.

A lot of remainers who believe in democracy won't want to revisit the issue either, hence the Lib Dems' campaign of a 'people's vote' not being a vote-winner.

Opinion polling was too generous to Remain at the time of the EU referendum, so it's probably fair to say there's a good chance it still could be.

The red wall being "Pro Brexit" is a myth. If anything, they're pro-change. Brexit was a desperate effort to shake up what is ultimately a broken system of Government. Seeing as Brexit isn't going to be bringing the kind of changes they were hoping for, I doubt all that many would care if it was scrapped at this point.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

1 hour ago, StellarHibee said:

The red wall being "Pro Brexit" is a myth. If anything, they're pro-change. Brexit was a desperate effort to shake up what is ultimately a broken system of Government. Seeing as Brexit isn't going to be bringing the kind of changes they were hoping for, I doubt all that many would care if it was scrapped at this point.

Can't agree mate.  The Brexit votes in these areas were huge, with some being over 70%

Working class areas who not only had never voted Tory in their puff, but actively despised them, ended up voting for Boris because he promised to get Brexit done.

[StellarHibee]

19 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Can't agree mate.  The Brexit votes in these areas were huge, with some being over 70%

Working class areas who not only had never voted Tory in their puff, but actively despised them, ended up voting for Boris because he promised to get Brexit done.

That was then, this is now. Brexit clearly doesn't work and isn't offering these people the benefit they thought it would. All it has served to do is make their lives even harder. They've had enough time to come to terms with this which would explain the overwhelming shift in attitudes towards Brexit. Keir Starmer knows attitudes have changed towards it. But his pro-brexit stance is all about how it benefits him personally.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 hour ago, StellarHibee said:

The red wall being "Pro Brexit" is a myth. If anything, they're pro-change. Brexit was a desperate effort to shake up what is ultimately a broken system of Government. Seeing as Brexit isn't going to be bringing the kind of changes they were hoping for, I doubt all that many would care if it was scrapped at this point.

The reality is that racism (or racialism) has played a huge part - and the political establishment are entirely to blame for that.

Labour and the Lib Dems for not being tough on racism and the Tories embracing racism because of UKIP.

It's easy to blame foreign people for "taking our jobs" because the politicians are too scared to call out this shite.

 

[Michael W]

2 hours ago, StellarHibee said:

The red wall being "Pro Brexit" is a myth. If anything, they're pro-change. Brexit was a desperate effort to shake up what is ultimately a broken system of Government. Seeing as Brexit isn't going to be bringing the kind of changes they were hoping for, I doubt all that many would care if it was scrapped at this point.

Maybe, but they went and voted for it despite it being the pet project of the political party that they profess to hate. 

I suppose they have gotten one thing that they wanted out of it, with less Europeans coming to the UK as a result. Wonder how they feel about EU immigrants being replaced by African and Asian immigrants instead? 

[RuMoore]

2 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Can't agree mate.  The Brexit votes in these areas were huge, with some being over 70%

Working class areas who not only had never voted Tory in their puff, but actively despised them, ended up voting for Boris because he promised to get Brexit done.

And due to not wanting to support Corbyn. 

Anyone expecting Labour to reopen this argument is doing so in bad faith. 

[Fullerene]

3 hours ago, StellarHibee said:

That was then, this is now. Brexit clearly doesn't work and isn't offering these people the benefit they thought it would. All it has served to do is make their lives even harder. They've had enough time to come to terms with this which would explain the overwhelming shift in attitudes towards Brexit. Keir Starmer knows attitudes have changed towards it. But his pro-brexit stance is all about how it benefits him personally.

If Labour were to mention Brexit at all, then suddenly it would become the only topic.

"They don't believe in democracy, they don't reflect the vote, they don't believe in this country".

Basically they have to wait until a large enough majority demand a second referendum.

 

[MazzyStar]

9 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

The reality is that racism (or racialism) has played a huge part - and the political establishment are entirely to blame for that.

Labour and the Lib Dems for not being tough on racism and the Tories embracing racism because of UKIP.

It's easy to blame foreign people for "taking our jobs" because the politicians are too scared to call out this shite.

 

Because the tories were not racist before brexit or ukip? 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

9 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

Because the tories were not racist before brexit or ukip? 

There always has been but with the rise of UKIP it's pretty obvious that the Tories have moved to the right.