What is the point of Labour ?

[Guest Jedi]

On 06/10/2022 at 12:43, CambieBud said:

 if policies are nearly identical 

Where have the Tories proposed nationalising railways, imposing a Windfall Tax on the energy companies, (rather than handing them billions of public money), setting up a National Energy Company, aiming for net zero by 2030 by a massive investment in renewables, and green energy, talked about PR voting, proposed a real Living Wage, (£15 an hour minimum wage), to support trade unions as the 'most effective vehicle to organise workers' (passed at recent Conference), proposed a National Care Service, (rather than selling off the NHS), aim for a pay deal for public sector workers which matches inflation (passed at Conference), to cite a few.

Identical to the Tories though...must have missed it.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Jedi

[Guest Jedi]

Interesting to see that some folk say they would prefer a minority Tory govt rather than a Labour one, just to keep the Independence issue going (when of course the minority Tory govt would block any Referendum)

[doulikefish]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

Interesting to see that some folk say they would prefer a minority Tory govt rather than a Labour one, just to keep the Independence issue going (when of course the minority Tory govt would block any Referendum)

Interesting that labour still peddle this utter rubbish along with the "Scotland has to vote labour " because without Scotland labour can't win

 

[Dunning1874]

8 hours ago, Jedi said:

Where have the Tories proposed nationalising railways, imposing a Windfall Tax on the energy companies, (rather than handing them billions of public money), setting up a National Energy Company, aiming for net zero by 2030 by a massive investment in renewables, and green energy, talked about PR voting, proposed a real Living Wage, (£15 an hour minimum wage), to support trade unions as the 'most effective vehicle to organise workers' (passed at recent Conference), proposed a National Care Service, (rather than selling off the NHS), aim for a pay deal for public sector workers which matches inflation (passed at Conference), to cite a few.

Identical to the Tories though...must have missed it.

Ah yes, Labour leaders never ignore policies passed at Conference when it comes to a manifesto.

Starmer has literally sacked shadow cabinet members for standing on picket lines, you can't seriously claim a Labour government will support trade unions. You've evidently also missed that the fabled national energy company will not be involved in either supply or generation of energy rather than simply being an investment vehicle, while despite conference last year passing support for a £15 minimum wage Starmer has refused to adopt this.

Interesting that your usual dive in and list all the ways Labour can't possibly be right wing whenever someone criticises a right wing policy didn't happen when immigration policy was discussed, where the Shadow Chancellor of "Labour will be tougher than the Tories on benefits" fame has been attacking the Tories for not deporting people quickly enough.

Few people dispute that Labour would be less evil and less shit than the Tories. The point is that that's all they're proposing: they're still going to be evil and shit.

Take a windfall tax on energy companies. It has a use as a one-off policy and is better than the Tory approach, but it's still the proverbial plaster on a shotgun wound. It's not actually going to fundamentally change the problems with the energy sector in the UK. That'd be the case even before you consider that their plan for the receipts of a windfall tax on energy companies is to simply hand the money back to energy companies as a subsidy. You could even call that handing them billions of pounds of public money!

[Benjamin_Nevis]

9 hours ago, Jedi said:

Where have the Tories proposed nationalising railways, imposing a Windfall Tax on the energy companies, (rather than handing them billions of public money), setting up a National Energy Company, aiming for net zero by 2030 by a massive investment in renewables, and green energy, talked about PR voting, proposed a real Living Wage, (£15 an hour minimum wage), to support trade unions as the 'most effective vehicle to organise workers' (passed at recent Conference), proposed a National Care Service, (rather than selling off the NHS), aim for a pay deal for public sector workers which matches inflation (passed at Conference), to cite a few.

Identical to the Tories though...must have missed it.

Very little of which will see the light of day if Labour are elected. You missed out Labour's policy on immigration though. Rachel Reeves seems to think the Tories aren't punting asylum seekers out of the country quickly enough apparently. 

I have also seen nothing on the welfare state from labour which is remotely encouraging. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Day of the Lords

[sophia]

9 hours ago, Jedi said:

Where have the Tories proposed nationalising railways, imposing a Windfall Tax on the energy companies, (rather than handing them billions of public money), setting up a National Energy Company, aiming for net zero by 2030 by a massive investment in renewables, and green energy, talked about PR voting, proposed a real Living Wage, (£15 an hour minimum wage), to support trade unions as the 'most effective vehicle to organise workers' (passed at recent Conference), proposed a National Care Service, (rather than selling off the NHS), aim for a pay deal for public sector workers which matches inflation (passed at Conference), to cite a few.

Identical to the Tories though...must have missed it.

Would you be able to describe specifically what this company will do?

[Guest Jedi]

The National Energy Company is designed to be a start up source for British renewables in particular tidal and wind power. Although it would work in partnership with a variety of sources both public and private, as a publicly owned institution, its profits are reinvested back into the public sector for projects such as home insulation.

Sturgeon promised a similar project in Scotland in 2017..Still waiting (though its only Labout who list pledges and don't then implement 'any' of them, as suggested).

A windfall tax on energy companies may indeed be a short term solution, but its the same one as proposed by the SNP, so SNP policy = good, Labour policy = right wing zealots.

Rachel Reeves suggested that the Tories had promised to be the party of being tough on immigration and then failed to do so over 12 years...Don't think that translates into 'we promise to deport more people'

If the current polls were anything like repeated in 2 years time (and I don't think they will be quite as good as a 25 point lead), Labour would win the GE without many Scottish seats.

I said before that I believed Starmer was wrong to sideline anyone for joining a picket line. If you believe the Tories will be/are more favourable for trade unions, good luck with that.

Also, still waiting on an explanation of how Andrew Wilson's Growth Commission of right wing ideals, low tax, cutting public spending and services, 10 years of financial hardship, selling off Scottish assets to foreign multinationals, all while tying himself to B of E interest rate setting leads to 'utopia'.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Jedi

[Merkie84]

Would Labour winning a GE with only English seats finally pit to bed the idea that Scotland needs to be part of the union to avoid perpetual Tory rule in England? 

[Antlion]

4 hours ago, Jedi said:

 

A windfall tax on energy companies may indeed be a short term solution, but its the same one as proposed by the SNP, so SNP policy = good, Labour policy = right wing zealots.

 

This as opposed to your Labour = good, SNP = right wing zealots?

[sophia]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

The National Energy Company is designed to be a start up source for British renewables in particular tidal and wind power. Although it would work in partnership with a variety of sources both public and private, as a publicly owned institution, its profits are reinvested back into the public sector for projects such as home insulation.

Sturgeon promised a similar project in Scotland in 2017..Still waiting (though its only Labout who list pledges and don't then implement 'any' of them, as suggested).

A windfall tax on energy companies may indeed be a short term solution, but its the same one as proposed by the SNP, so SNP policy = good, Labour policy = right wing zealots.

Rachel Reeves suggested that the Tories had promised to be the party of being tough on immigration and then failed to do so over 12 years...Don't think that translates into 'we promise to deport more people'

If the current polls were anything like repeated in 2 years time (and I don't think they will be quite as good as a 25 point lead), Labour would win the GE without many Scottish seats.

I said before that I believed Starmer was wrong to sideline anyone for joining a picket line. If you believe the Tories will be/are more favourable for trade unions, good luck with that.

Also, still waiting on an explanation of how Andrew Wilson's Growth Commission of right wing ideals, low tax, cutting public spending and services, 10 years of financial hardship, selling off Scottish assets to foreign multinationals, all while tying himself to B of E interest rate setting leads to 'utopia'.

Like this?

[Guest Jedi]

6 hours ago, Antlion said:

This as opposed to your Labour = good, SNP = right wing zealots?

The SNP are generally portrayed as 'beyond reproach'...my comments on them are centred around their blueprint for Independece which is a neoliberal dream, if that's your thing..fine.

At the same time I have disagreed with sacking an MP for joining a picket line, of union jack backdrops at Conference, of not being clearer on Brexit, and indeed of getting involved in any kind of spat with the Tories on immigration, I also said that if the SNP won 50% of the Scottish vote at a GE that a Labour govt should negotiate Independece (we know the Tories wouldnt), so have hardly portrayed Labour as = all good.

Despite my critisms of the party I am willing to look at some of their proposals which I feel would improve life for a lot of people, compared to another 5 years of the Tories.

Do they get some things wrong as well? Absolutely. Are they just the 'same' as the Tories? No.

Someone one said that the best you can probably hope for is to find a political party where you agree with 70-80% of their policies...SNP 'support' on the other hand appears to require 100% agreement...wouldn't matter if Kate Forbes was leader..she would still get everything 'right'

[doulikefish]

Why should folk vote for hard Brexit labour?

[Granny Danger]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The SNP are generally portrayed as 'beyond reproach'...my comments on them are centred around their blueprint for Independece which is a neoliberal dream, if that's your thing..fine.

At the same time I have disagreed with sacking an MP for joining a picket line, of union jack backdrops at Conference, of not being clearer on Brexit, and indeed of getting involved in any kind of spat with the Tories on immigration, I also said that if the SNP won 50% of the Scottish vote at a GE that a Labour govt should negotiate Independece (we know the Tories wouldnt), so have hardly portrayed Labour as = all good.

Despite my critisms of the party I am willing to look at some of their proposals which I feel would improve life for a lot of people, compared to another 5 years of the Tories.

Do they get some things wrong as well? Absolutely. Are they just the 'same' as the Tories? No.

Someone one said that the best you can probably hope for is to find a political party where you agree with 70-80% of their policies...SNP 'support' on the other hand appears to require 100% agreement...wouldn't matter if Kate Forbes was leader..she would still get everything 'right'

Yeah, every single SNP supporter on here is a neoliberal.  It is definitely what we dream about.  Personally I cannot wait for Independence so we can strip the country of petty regulations.  Get the sons (and daughters) of poor people up chimneys again.  After all once we reopen the mines (using convicts for the dirty work) coal heating will be the way to go, f**k climate change!
 

[carpetmonster]

18 minutes ago, doulikefish said:

Why should folk vote for hard Brexit labour?

Cos Lisa Nandy says they’ll send the cops to boot f**k out of us like the Catalans if we don’t. Labour, great bunch of lads. 

[Antlion]

53 minutes ago, Jedi said:

 

Do they get some things wrong as well? Absolutely. Are they just the 'same' as the Tories? No.

 

Who has actually said that they’re just the same as the current Tory party? You seem fond of arguing against it so who’s arguing it in the first place?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

On 05/10/2022 at 15:07, williemillersmoustache said:

There are at least 2 generations of gravy drinking jobsworths denied their god given right to a career for life on the backs of the Scottish worker they have absolutely zero intention of doing anything at all for. 

There are some amount of careerists in the SNP government as well, Humza Yousaf being one of the most over promoted politicians on this planet. A staggeringly bad grasp of any brief he’s ever had. Agree Labour is infested with them too however, but lets not pretend its just them. 

11 hours ago, Merkie84 said:

Would Labour winning a GE with only English seats finally pit to bed the idea that Scotland needs to be part of the union to avoid perpetual Tory rule in England? 

I cant get why Jedi downvoted this? Its entirely true. Labour shifted centre right and won an election, they’re not a ‘real’ labour party, big Keith’s shutting down of support for picket lines etc shows exactly where they stand. Scotland doesnt matter to Labour or the Tories, except when it comes to pillaging our resources. See how openly they talk about exploiting our renewables sector etc as if Scotland’s resources are just theres for the taking. 

[coprolite]

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

The SNP are generally portrayed as 'beyond reproach'...my comments on them are centred around their blueprint for Independece which is a neoliberal dream, if that's your thing..fine.

At the same time I have disagreed with sacking an MP for joining a picket line, of union jack backdrops at Conference, of not being clearer on Brexit, and indeed of getting involved in any kind of spat with the Tories on immigration, I also said that if the SNP won 50% of the Scottish vote at a GE that a Labour govt should negotiate Independece (we know the Tories wouldnt), so have hardly portrayed Labour as = all good.

Despite my critisms of the party I am willing to look at some of their proposals which I feel would improve life for a lot of people, compared to another 5 years of the Tories.

Do they get some things wrong as well? Absolutely. Are they just the 'same' as the Tories? No.

Someone one said that the best you can probably hope for is to find a political party where you agree with 70-80% of their policies...SNP 'support' on the other hand appears to require 100% agreement...wouldn't matter if Kate Forbes was leader..she would still get everything 'right'

I don't think that the Labour party overall is remotely similar to the Tory party overall. 

The parliamentary Labour party is very similar to the parliamentary Tory party in many ways. 

By and large, the Tory leadeship reflects the views of their members whereas the Labour leadership doesn't and instead tries to triangulate policies that will win Tory votes. 

The Independence parties aren't fettered with an ideological position outside of leaving the UK but all appear to have ended up to the left of labour.  

For someone like myself who doesn't care about independence but prefers left wing policies, the independence parties are a more palatable option than labour. 

I don't know how much of the snp vote is based on their actual operational policies and how much on the indy pipedream, but i wouldn't take this place as representative. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I'll take my chances with democratic decisions made in Scotland by the people of Scotland.

It's preferable to the Labour/Conservative hegemony that completely ignores the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland and prefers to pander to racists.

[coprolite]

2 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I'll take my chances with democratic decisions made in Scotland by the people of Scotland.

It's preferable to the Labour/Conservative hegemony that completely ignores the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland and prefers to pander to racists.

False dichotomy. I think you’ll find that the democratic wishes of Scottish racists are well represented by the current government. 

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, coprolite said:

I don't think that the Labour party overall is remotely similar to the Tory party overall. 

The parliamentary Labour party is very similar to the parliamentary Tory party in many ways. 

By and large, the Tory leadeship reflects the views of their members whereas the Labour leadership doesn't and instead tries to triangulate policies that will win Tory votes. 

The Independence parties aren't fettered with an ideological position outside of leaving the UK but all appear to have ended up to the left of labour.  

For someone like myself who doesn't care about independence but prefers left wing policies, the independence parties are a more palatable option than labour. 

I don't know how much of the snp vote is based on their actual operational policies and how much on the indy pipedream, but i wouldn't take this place as representative. 

The Labour Party doesn’t want radical change, if they did they wouldn’t chose someone like Starmer.

They want to tinker at the edges and a future Labour government will make changes that a future Tory government can easily undo.