What is the point of Labour ?

[coprolite]

Can someone who understands these things better than I do explain Labour’s motivation for ruling out a deal with the SNP? I don’t get why they couldn’t just leave the possibility open.

[Boo Khaki]

7 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Can someone who understands these things better than I do explain Labour’s motivation for ruling out a deal with the SNP? I don’t get why they couldn’t just leave the possibility open.

Because every single GE the Tories bring out the 'Labour leader in Salmond/Sturgeon's pocket' bogeyman to scare the English about the horrifying prospect of Scotland playing an active and meaningful part in UK democracy, and they lap it right up and run out and vote Tory.

See also all the usual nonsense about 'Coalitions of chaos' and it not being any sort of way to govern a serious country, despite the fact that the Tories themselves were a willing partner in the only coalition government of recent times.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Boo Khaki

[Clown Job]

6 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Can someone who understands these things better than I do explain Labour’s motivation for ruling out a deal with the SNP? I don’t get why they couldn’t just leave the possibility open.

 

Just now, Boo Khaki said:

Because every single GE the Tories bring out the 'Labour leader in Salmond/Sturgeon's pocket' bogeyman to scare the English about the horrifying prospect of Scotland playing an active part in UK democracy, and they lap it right up and run out and vote Tory.

They’ve also never gotten over the fact the SNP replaced them as the biggest party in Scotland 

 

[Boo Khaki]

7 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

 

They’ve also never gotten over the fact the SNP replaced them as the biggest party in Scotland 

 

Yes, that as well, and most of them are young enough that they actually buy the myth of the SNP bringing down Callaghan's government, in spite of the man himself dismissing that as complete and utter nonsense.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Boo Khaki

[coprolite]

39 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Because every single GE the Tories bring out the 'Labour leader in Salmond/Sturgeon's pocket' bogeyman to scare the English about the horrifying prospect of Scotland playing an active and meaningful part in UK democracy, and they lap it right up and run out and vote Tory.

See also all the usual nonsense about 'Coalitions of chaos' and it not being any sort of way to govern a serious country, despite the fact that the Tories themselves were a willing partner in the only coalition government of recent times.

Surely it can’t make a significant difference in England, where Scottish Indy barely shifts the dial?

All of what you say is true of course. Maybe it’s about broader perceptions more than about independence itself.

38 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

 

They’ve also never gotten over the fact the SNP replaced them as the biggest party in Scotland 

 

Do they think they can get lost votes back by trying to make it vote SNP, get Tories at Westminster? Or do you think it’s purely petty spite?

[Clown Job]

3 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Do they think they can get lost votes back by trying to make it vote SNP, get Tories at Westminster? Or do you think it’s purely petty spite?

Pure spite 

 

[Boo Khaki]

3 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Surely it can’t make a significant difference in England, where Scottish Indy barely shifts the dial?

All of what you say is true of course. Maybe it’s about broader perceptions more than about independence itself.

Do they think they can get lost votes back by trying to make it vote SNP, get Tories at Westminster? Or do you think it’s purely petty spite?

It's nothing to do with Indi, or Scots politics at all really, it's just a scare tactic designed to appeal to inherent little englander hatred of 'jocks' and the "f**k 'em havin' any say in are country!"

If it means a few more Tory votes and fewer Labour, then it's worked as intended.

[coprolite]

1 minute ago, Boo Khaki said:

It's nothing to do with Indi, or Scots politics at all really, it's just a scare tactic designed to appeal to inherent little englander hatred of 'jocks' and the "f**k 'em havin' any say in are country!"

If it means a few more Tory votes and fewer Labour, then it's worked as intended.

It’s made me less likely to vote labour. 
 

I won’t vote for plaid with any enthusiasm, but they all count the same.

[scottsdad]

3 hours ago, coprolite said:

Surely it can’t make a significant difference in England, where Scottish Indy barely shifts the dial?

All of what you say is true of course. Maybe it’s about broader perceptions more than about independence itself.

Do they think they can get lost votes back by trying to make it vote SNP, get Tories at Westminster? Or do you think it’s purely petty spite?

Every election they wheel out the "Coalition of chaos" line. It works. In middle England it resonates with some voters.

[coprolite]

4 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Every election they wheel out the "Coalition of chaos" line. It works. In middle England it resonates with some voters.

Genuinely never seen any of these. Looks like a Scottish thing. There might be a few of the diaspora who pick up on such things but the English genuinely don't give a shit as a whole. 

[Clown Job]

18 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Every election they wheel out the "Coalition of chaos" line. It works. In middle England it resonates with some voters.

It’s the thought of the “jocks” ruling them that they can’t handle 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

4 hours ago, Clown Job said:

They’ve also never gotten over the fact the SNP replaced them as the biggest party in Scotland 

 

It's 90% this tbh. Labour probably despise the SNP more than the fucking Tories do. We're on what 15 years of electoral thumpings delivered to Labour by the SNP and still they've learned nothing, and blame the voters for deserting then. 

[williemillersmoustache]

6 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

It's 90% this tbh. Labour probably despise the SNP more than the fucking Tories do. We're on what 15 years of electoral thumpings delivered to Labour by the SNP and still they've learned nothing, and blame the voters for deserting then. 

There are at least 2 generations of gravy drinking jobsworths denied their god given right to a career for life on the backs of the Scottish worker they have absolutely zero intention of doing anything at all for. 

[Antlion]

14 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

There are at least 2 generations of gravy drinking jobsworths denied their god given right to a career for life on the backs of the Scottish worker they have absolutely zero intention of doing anything at all for. 

I suspect the bitterness was only exacerbated by the SNP’s continued electoral success following Labour’s whoring it up with the Tories to ensure a “No” vote in 2014. We were all meant to go back into our box following that result, only periodically emerging to vote Labour in any and every election.

The fact that Scots didn’t return to blind obedience to the Labour Party seems to have infuriated them - but they can’t directly attack the electorate for not returning to unthinking Labour-drone status, so the next best thing is monstering the SNP. Don’t fool yourself though - it’s us, the voters, Labour hate, as much if not more than the SNP. We’re the ones who didn’t behave like the useful idiots they’ve long taken us for.

[williemillersmoustache]

2 minutes ago, Antlion said:

I suspect the bitterness was only exacerbated by the SNP’s continued electoral success following Labour’s whoring it up with the Tories to ensure a “No” vote in 2014. We were all meant to go back into our box following that result, only periodically emerging to vote Labour in any and every election.

The fact that Scots didn’t return to blind obedience to the Labour Party seems to have infuriated them - but they can’t directly attack the electorate for not returning to unthinking Labour-drone status, so the next best thing is monstering the SNP. Don’t fool yourself though - it’s us, the voters, Labour hate, as much if not more than the SNP. We’re the ones who didn’t behave like the useful idiots they’ve long taken us for.

Tom Harris is my favourite.  Waiting for Labour to be returned so they can deliver the Scots working man from the tartantoryvileIRAESSENNPEE. Meanwhile, he grafts, behind the scenes in a job appointed by and for the Tory government and the odd cheque fromthe Daily Mail and Telegraph, but one day! He shall pounce, in the name of the proletariat, back into some cushy as f**k job doing nothing with a SLab rosette. 

 

[Antlion]

Just now, williemillersmoustache said:

Tom Harris is my favourite.  Waiting for Labour to be returned so they can deliver the Scots working man from the tartantoryvileIRAESSENNPEE. Meanwhile, he grafts, behind the scenes in a job appointed by and for the Tory government and the odd cheque fromthe Daily Mail and Telegraph, but one day! He shall pounce, in the name of the proletariat, back into some cushy as f**k job doing nothing with a SLab rosette. 

 

One has to respect Tom Harris, really. Rather than ineffectually mewling about being called a Red Tory, he decided to embrace the label, outing himself as a hardcore UKNat separatist and fully accepting his place as a Tory poodle.

… Or at least one would respect his transformation into a far-right Tory if it wasn’t for the fact that that makes him a dirty b*****d.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Labour seems to have a long-standing and amazing inability to adopt the sensible position on any issue that might inflame xenophobes and bigots. 
"No, the UK isn't 'full', and EU immigration is a massive boon to the UK economy" instead became a limp 'we need to talk about immigration' and ensured that any discussion of the issue automatically started from a default position of it being an inherently negative thing.
"Voting 'Leave' would be a catastrophic act of economic self-harm, and promises of £350million a week for the NHS are barefaced lies designed to fool the gullible" became 'EU... yay... I suppose' in front of 25 people in Aldershot before vanishing for the remainder of the campaign.
They are being pilloried currently for being an utterly anodyne and ineffectual opposition, but the truth is they've been exactly that since 2010 and are as much a part of the ongoing omnishambles that is the UK as the Tories or LibDems. I don't blame them for being so wet over the past couple of years, because they've clearly learned from Theresa May's approach that sometimes you can actually win a GE by doing as little as possible, and hiding yourself away as much as possible, in order not to impede your opponent while they are busy hoisting themselves with their own petard. 
I still find their 'Brexit is done' position completely unacceptable though. They've completely thrown the 48% of people who voted remain, and the proportion of the 52% who voted leave but in no way sanctioned an ultra-hard EU exit under the bus, and for that, they can completely and utterly get to f**k.

They are ultimately afraid to tackle thick working class racists.

[Clown Job]

[CambieBud]

Ian Murray really is thick.

I have pals who are still members of The Labour Party. To a man, they support Independence and rejoining the EU, but say that these issues are not to be discussed in public. Reason given is to get a majority in Westminster at all costs. They don’t see the irony of being elected to government, with no policies that are any different to the current incumbents. The usual wishywashy A Labour Government is always better than a Tory one just doesn’t cut it, if policies are nearly identical 

[Boo Khaki]

The main reason I switched from being ambivalent to the prospect of Indi to wholeheartedly behind it, is it became abundantly clear during the McConnell/Blair years that all Labour gave a flying f**k about was winning Westminster elections, so sitting around waiting for them to govern Scotland in Scotland's best interests was something that was a fundamental contradiction. Not that I was ever a Labour voter in the first place, but the Labour party are themselves the reason I became a separatist tartan gonk, and no matter how often they bin one leader for the next there isn't a hope in hell of them winning my vote while they maintain a pro-union stance. It effectively guarantees that we'll always been an afterthought when opinions in England are at odds with the majority view in Scotland. I'd be as well just voting Tory.