What is the point of Labour ?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Wonder if the logo will have a massive union flag on it 
 

Yep - more flag shagging shite.

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

It’s wild how English politicians can’t just admit Brexit doesn’t work and it was a mistake 

They’re terrified of admitting the electorate was conned by spivs and chancers. Apparently, it’s ok to call the opposition bad names (just not in the House of Commons, where free speech prevents it) - you just can’t acknowledge that the charlatans have actually succeeded in their charlatanism. Bizarre.

[Dawson Park Boy]

Some very tasteless remarks from the labour MP, Rupa Huq, saying that KK is not really black or words to that effect.

Wow, thought it was just Tories that did that sort of thing.

Cringeworthy.

[carpetmonster]

11 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Some very tasteless remarks from the labour MP, Rupa Huq, saying that KK is not really black or words to that effect.

Wow, thought it was just Tories that did that sort of thing.

Cringeworthy.

This is what the separatists have been telling you for years, there's no fucking difference. Get them all in the bin. 

[Guest Jedi]

5 hours ago, Caledonian1 said:

You still believe the Scottish Government are payin £700m for the ScotWind licences?  If so maybe best to take yourself away from this discussion as you clearly do not understand it.

Always love intellectual superiority/better than thou.

[DA Baracus]

Starmer and his party of c***s are so rabidly, ideologically opposed to you having democracy, and massively hyprocritically so given other positions he holds, that he would rather inflict more years of Tory rule on you than even so much as hint he might be ok with you having democracy.

 

Should Labour need SNP votes in a Westminster election he'll say that if the SNP don't unconditionally give them then it will be their, and by extension YOUR, fault, should the SNP refuse and the Tories can make a government. Even if you don't vote SNP, by being Scottish you will be blamed for millions of English voters cheering on the filth that is the Conservative party.

 

Starmer, and Labour, aren't just attacking the SNP, they are attacking all of Scotland, the Scottish people and our democracy, regardless of your views on independence and whatever party you will vote for in a general election, because when Starmer wails to the press about the SNP 'letting the Tories win', do you think the press will differentiate between the SNP and Scotland? Do you think Starmer and his party of creeps will correct them? Will Starmer and party of traitors regulate their language?

 

Labour have declared a politcal war on Scotland, on you. You can laugh it off, you can cheer them on, but it doesn't change that you are seen as less than English voters, that your vote means less, that you don't deserve a level of democracy other voters do. The 'nation of equals' pish was always nonsense, but his speech today eradicated even a pretense of it.

 

Even if Starmer and Labour didn't really believe this (but they do), they've prioritised English votes and voters over the Scottish electorate by saying what he did today. An argument can be made that this is just sensible, but how far does over that go? Are you content being always being less of a priority? They've already shown on independence that they don't value your right to democracy. Where does it end?

 

I'm not a member of the SNP. I vote for them as a means to an end. Were Scotland to become independent I would vote Green. Independence isn't a magic bullet that solves everything. Things wouldn't be perfect. But it gives us all a chance at a fairer society. That's far more we'll ever have under the Tories. It's far more than we'll ever have under a Labour who are lurching more and more to the right and inequity. If Labour win the next election, it's just delaying the next horror show of Conservative government. I hope for more than that, and I think we all deserve more than that.

Edited September 28, 2022 by DA Baracus

[Guest Jedi]

I think it's fair to say that a Labour govt (any Labour govt), will invest more heavily in public services than the Tories. To not do so, would go against the grain of their raison d'etre. Doesn't matter if it's a left leaning (a la Corbyn) or a centrist (Starmer) led party.

Given that they were battered in their own backyard across the Midlands by the Tories in 2019 over being wishy washy on Brexit, they are hardly going to come out now on a platform of rejoining the EU (at the moment). Of course they will never out gun the Tories in terms of union jack waving, but again, they have to circumvent the Tory attack line that they are 'unpatriotic'. I don't like flag waving either (of any kind), but can see why they have the UJ front and centre at the Conference, doesn't mean I agree with it.

They were also hounded by the Tories in 2015 with the line that they were in Sturgeon's pocket, so they are unlikely to declare that we will work with anyone in coalition just to keep the Tories out now. 'If' the SNP win 50+ seats in Scotland then a Labour govt would still be under pressure to negotiate on Independence whether they liked it or not.

There is clear water between Labour and the Tories...one has just scrapped the top rate of tax to hand the wealthy more cash, while the other is pledging to reinstate it to fund the NHS. 

Labour also traditionally borrow to invest (in public services), not to hand tax cuts to the rich or big pay outs to energy giants (rather proposing aa windfall tax on the same utilities).

Rather than fracking, Labour is serious about developing green energy, both as a source of jobs, and also to find alternative energy sources which are both better for the planet, and also move away from dependence on Russian oil and gas. 

That's not 'Tory lite', it's a left of centre approach to govt.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Jedi

[Clown Job]

4 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Should Labour need SNP votes in a Westminster election he'll say that if the SNP don't unconditionally give them then it will be their, and by extension YOUR, fault, should the SNP refuse and the Tories can make a government.

I genuinely believe the Scottish branch would absolutely love this scenario

Seeing the tories in power so they can blame “the nationalists” 

[williemillersmoustache]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

I think it's fair to say that a Labour govt (any Labour govt), will invest more heavily in public services than the Tories. To not do so, would go against the grain of their raison d'etre. Doesn't matter if it's a left leaning (a la Corbyn) or a centrist (Starmer) led party.

Given that they were battered in their own backyard across the Midlands by the Tories in 2019 over being wishy washy on Brexit, they are hardly going to come out now on a platform of rejoining the EU (at the moment). Of course they will never out gun the Tories in terms of union jack waving, but again, they have to circumvent the Tory attack line that they are 'unpatriotic'. I don't like flag waving either (of any kind), but can see why they have the UJ front and centre at the Conference, doesn't mean I agree with it.

They were also hounded by the Tories in 2015 with the line that they were in Sturgeon's pocket, so they are unlikely to declare that we will work with anyone in coalition just to keep the Tories out now. 'If' the SNP win 50+ seats in Scotland then a Labour govt would still be under pressure to negotiate on Independence whether they liked it or not.

There is clear water between Labour and the Tories...one has just scrapped the top rate of tax to hand the wealthy more cash, while the other is pledging to reinstate it to fund the NHS. 

Labour also traditionally borrow to invest (in public services), not to hand tax cuts to the rich or big pay outs to energy giants (rather proposing aa windfall tax on the same utilities).

Rather than fracking, Labour is serious about developing green energy, both as a source of jobs, and also to find alternative energy sources which are both better for the planet, and also move away from dependence on Russian oil and gas. 

That's not 'Tory lite', it's a left of centre approach to govt.

If I wanted to highlight how different Labour are to the Tories I'd avoid conceding that two of their key policies are written by them. 

[Clown Job]

 

[Guest Jedi]

I am assuming that the 'highlighted' policies (written by the Tories) are making Brexit 'work', and not forming a coalition with the SNP.

Question: If Labour stood on a platform of re-joining the EU at the next election-would they win?

Also, he has ruled out a 'coalition' with the SNP. Nowhere has he said 'and if the SNP win nearly every seat in Scotland, I will refuse to even negotiate Independence with them;

No mention of Labour announcing a publicly owned energy company though. Again, hardly a 'Tory' policies, and certainly not a policy followed by Sturgeon. 

[williemillersmoustache]

Its almost as if winning by any means is the most tory policy of all. 

[Guest Jedi]

3 hours ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Its almost as if winning by any means is the most tory policy of all. 

By any means?...reinstating the top rate of tax, (to invest in the NHS),a windfall tax on energy companies, setting up a publicly owned state Energy company, rather than fracking making a serious investment in green energy and jobs, bringing railways into public ownership, trebling onshore wind power, trebling solar power, quadrupling tidal, nuclear, and hydrogen power, a serious attempt to get more people on the housing ladder, cutting down on business fraud, ending automatic evictions, and no-fault evictions by landlords....these all sound pretty left wing to me. 

But because he isn't inviting the SNP into a potential coalition, he is trying to win by any means?

Edited September 27, 2022 by Jedi

[sparky88]

10 hours ago, Jedi said:

I am assuming that the 'highlighted' policies (written by the Tories) are making Brexit 'work', and not forming a coalition with the SNP.

Question: If Labour stood on a platform of re-joining the EU at the next election-would they win?

Also, he has ruled out a 'coalition' with the SNP. Nowhere has he said 'and if the SNP win nearly every seat in Scotland, I will refuse to even negotiate Independence with them;

No mention of Labour announcing a publicly owned energy company though. Again, hardly a 'Tory' policies, and certainly not a policy followed by Sturgeon. 

I suspect a sniff of a labour win will see SNP voters tactically vote for Labour at a general election. Which should get Labour a few seats in the central belt. Essentially this happened towards the end of the 2017 election campaign too. 

[Detournement]

Starmer lies more than Boris. 

You can't take his conference speech any more seriously than his commitment to the 2017 and 2019 manifestos, his demand for a second referendum at conference in 2019 or his 10 pledges in the leadership contests.

He will do whatever his backers tell him to. 

[williemillersmoustache]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

By any means?...reinstating the top rate of tax, (to invest in the NHS),a windfall tax on energy companies, setting up a publicly owned state Energy company, rather than fracking making a serious investment in green energy and jobs, bringing railways into public ownership, trebling onshore wind power, trebling solar power, quadrupling tidal, nuclear, and hydrogen power, a serious attempt to get more people on the housing ladder, cutting down on business fraud, ending automatic evictions, and no-fault evictions by landlords....these all sound pretty left wing to me. 

But because he isn't inviting the SNP into a potential coalition, he is trying to win by any means?

This really does show how easily the Tories have shifted the dial. Reinstating what 3 weeks ago were tory policies now makes you Keir Hardie for some people. 

[DA Baracus]

Again, it isn't about the SNP. It isn't really about independence as such, as what else will they 'refuse' us (as if they have the right to refuse us our democratic rights)? It's about Labour holding our right to democracy to ransom, or threatening that they'll do so. It's about their contempt they show for all Scottish voters. It's about how they openly say we are less of a priority, yet arrogantly demand we fall in line or we'll be blamed for the horrors the Tory party will continue to unleash on us.

I don't think anyone doubts Labour are a much better alternative to the Conservatives at Westminster, but we'll still be governed by a party largely rejected by the electorate here and still be told to get in line whilst they lie to us with promises they have zero intention of keeping, all whilst they keep the seat warm for another cycle of Conservative hurt.

Edited September 28, 2022 by DA Baracus

[Guest Jedi]

So, the suggestion is, that, at their Conference this week, Starmer should have said 'I will of course work with the SNP if that's what it takes, to form a government'? as if he doesn't he treats 'all' Scottish voters with contempt?

Why would any party announce that? What he has ruled out is forming a coalition govt with the SNP...nowhere has he said that he would 'dismiss a 50+ seats SNP result, in terms of talking about Independence. 

There is a big difference between saying 'no coalition', and 'I will totally ignore the result of an election in which the SNP stand on a single policy of 'should we negotiate Independence', in which they go on to win 50 odd seats (if that happens).

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Jedi

[Guest Jedi]

14 hours ago, williemillersmoustache said:

This really does show how easily the Tories have shifted the dial. Reinstating what 3 weeks ago were tory policies now makes you Keir Hardie for some people. 

Reinstating a top rate of 45p to invest in the NHS hardly makes anyone 'Keir Hardie'. 

Implementing a windfall tax on energy companies, chasing corporation fraud, trying to protect those in rented accommodation, setting up a publicly owned energy company, trying to boost the jobs market with green investment, protecting the environment, slapping VAT on private schools, nationalising rail, reversing anti-trade union laws, investing in mental health services, ending the benefits cap, and borrowing to invest does however, lean to the left, and offers policies to improve the country.

Meanwhile the SNP's proposal is to enter the election on a single policy of Independence.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Jedi

[williemillersmoustache]

Just now, Jedi said:

Reinstating a top rate of 45p to invest in the NHS hardly makes anyone Keir Hardie. 

Implementing a windfall tax on energy companies, chasing corporation fraud, trying to protect those in rented accommodation, setting up a publicly owned energy company, trying to boost the jobs market with green investment, protecting the environment, slapping VAT on private schools, nationalising rail, and borrowing to invest does however, lean to the left, and offers policies to improve the country.

Meanwhile the SNP's proposal is to enter the election on a single policy of Independence.

This i accept is going to hurt your sensibilities but, Starmer has, with the exception of a few commendable policies, occupied the centre right ground which Truss has so recenlty vacated and which up until a few days ago was dominated by Alexander Boris de Peffle Johnson. 

And this is something I know a little about, "boosting the jobs market" sounds like a good thing, in normal times it would be, but we don't need to boost the market. Up until Trussenomics we had jobs coming out of our fucking ears but hee haw people to fill them. What we need is not a byzantine points based immigration system, which is fundamentally a policy of the right, designed to keep them 'orroble forriers out. What we need is a large, flexible, diverse and easily accessible pool of talent and the means to attract them. I'll let you work out what that's called.