What is the point of Labour ?

[dirty dingus]

 

What's your idea  of left? Mines is it to try achieve more equality and better opportunity and not put up barriers whether sexual/race/religion  and help the less well off in the population by giving them a chance to better themselves like free university places and making the wealthy contribute more in society.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, btb said:

So Labour will work with the Tories and Lib-Dems but not the SNP. I trust we'll vote them down if we get an opportunity after the next election.

If the Tories have more seats than Labour but Labour with the SNP are a majority (a very likely scenario) then approval of a Section 30 order must be the prerequisite for not abstaining in any vote on a new government.

Likewise if Labour is the biggest party but the combined SNP/Tory vote is a majority then the SNP should vote against the Budget unless a Section 30 is granted.

 

[BFTD]

3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

If the Tories have more seats than Labour but Labour with the SNP are a majority (a very likely scenario) then approval of a Section 30 order must be the prerequisite for not abstaining in any vote on a new government.

Likewise if Labour is the biggest party but the combined SNP/Tory vote is a majority then the SNP should vote against the Budget unless a Section 30 is granted.

Then we vote no and permanently have no more influence over the running of the UK as Yorkshire.

Making deals based on a single Section 30 order is a dangerous move, considering what the trade-off is likely to be.

[Detournement]

48 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

 

What's your idea  of left? Mines is it to try achieve more equality and better opportunity and not put up barriers whether sexual/race/religion  and help the less well off in the population by giving them a chance to better themselves like free university places and making the wealthy contribute more in society.

My idea of left is putting the vast majority of the population who are working class ahead of the interests of capitalists. 

The Scottish Government have limited powers but we are now at a point where there is a choice to be made about free university education for the children of the wealthy and free prescriptions for wealthy pensioners vs vital services for vulnerable people and food and heat for people in poverty. The SNP so far have chosen to prioritise the interests of their electorate over the most in need. That is not a left position.

And no doubt someone is already getting set up to bang on about the costs of means testing. That argument might have stood up a decade ago but in 2022 with the amount of data the government holds on us all it's utter pish wheeled out to close down uncomfortable arguments.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Detournement

[Granny Danger]

7 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Then we vote no and permanently have no more influence over the running of the UK as Yorkshire.

Making deals based on a single Section 30 order is a dangerous move, considering what the trade-off is likely to be.

That’s not how it works.  If we don’t support a Labour government in the two scenarios I have outlined then there would need to be a further GE within weeks.  Starmer would not risk that.

There would be no trade off beyond that, everything else would be done on a case by case basis.

On the other hand if we don’t use the opportunity to ensure a Section 30 the the SNP MPs would be as well packing their bags and coming home.

[williemillersmoustache]

1 hour ago, BigDoddyKane said:

It probably makes sense for Starmer and Labour to have made that statement on Brexit. Rejoining wasnt going to happen in the short term so getting on with it and making "peace" with the EU and improving where possible the current fiasco is in the short term achievable and most likely to get support or at least not take away any support they need to win a GE. 

It's politically expedient but amoral and won't fix any of the problems and it doesn't have to be rejoin immediately. Ruling out sm, cu, and FoM is just the same sort of callous red meat as imperial measures and Rwanda. 

Exactly the pointless narrow venal self-serving and damaging shite the Tories are accused of. 

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

That’s not how it works.  If we don’t support a Labour government in the two scenarios I have outlined then there would need to be a further GE within weeks.  Starmer would not risk that.

There would be no trade off beyond that, everything else would be done on a case by case basis.

On the other hand if we don’t use the opportunity to ensure a Section 30 the the SNP MPs would be as well packing their bags and coming home.

Considering the last one was a springboard to stop Scots voting on "England-only" issues, any one-off referendum agreement will come with the price that it will be the last time Scotland has the chance to make its own decisions within the UK. The exact form that will take? Who knows, but there'll be no further referenda on any issue until the pair of us are dead.

If they somehow get into power in a couple of years, which they won't, Labour will make a massive c**t of government and be out in a single term. Then we're locked into another couple of decades of Tory asset stripping. Very much not worth the gamble IMO.

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, BFTD said:

Considering the last one was a springboard to stop Scots voting on "England-only" issues, any one-off referendum agreement will come with the price that it will be the last time Scotland has the chance to make its own decisions within the UK. The exact form that will take? Who knows, but there'll be no further referenda on any issue until the pair of us are dead.

If they somehow get into power in a couple of years, which they won't, Labour will make a massive c**t of government and be out in a single term. Then we're locked into another couple of decades of Tory asset stripping. Very much not worth the gamble IMO.

Of course it’s “worth the gamble”, otherwise there’s no point in us electing pro Independence MPs.

[BFTD]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Of course it’s “worth the gamble”, otherwise there’s no point in us electing pro Independence MPs.

We'll have to disagree on that. I'd rather not leave the country to my son with any agreement that Scotland's under Westminster rule until Westminster decides otherwise.

The important element should be establishing Holyrood's right to make these decisions if and when it chooses. Hopefully the High Heid Yins feel similarly.

Edited July 8, 2022 by BFTD
Jesus, fucking typos.

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, BFTD said:

We'll have to disagree on that. I'd rather not leave the country to my son with any agreement that Scotland's under Westminster rule until Westminster decides otherwise.

The important element should be establishing Holyrood's right to make these decisions if and when it chooses. Hopefully the High Heid Yins feel similarly.

Christ man it will never be in our own hands.  As things stand we need a Section 30 to go down the ‘legal’ route.  The alternatives are UDI or standing candidates in Englandshire.

[BFTD]

9 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Christ man it will never be in our own hands.  As things stand we need a Section 30 to go down the ‘legal’ route.  The alternatives are UDI or standing candidates in Englandshire.

That's what we're in the process of finding out.

[Granny Danger]

Just now, BFTD said:

That's what we're in the process of finding out.

I’m fairly certain what the ruling is going to be but hopefully I’m wrong.  Even then my understanding is that a referendum is advisory so would still be back at that point, though definitely in a far stronger position.

[BFTD]

11 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’m fairly certain what the ruling is going to be but hopefully I’m wrong.  Even then my understanding is that a referendum is advisory so would still be back at that point, though definitely in a far stronger position.

Probably, and hopefully the people in cherge have some idea about where we go once the UK's Supreme Court unsurprisingly decides that one of the UK's assets has no right to determine its own future. Despite the impatience from some folk, they're probably progressing at a rate that allows people to see that, yay or nay, Scotland's opinion on this issue is irrelevant - the UK considers that we're in until England decides otherwise.

But I do hope the final throw of the dice isn't, "one more chance, and we'll sign away whatever you like".

Edit: the UK, as we know, considers advisory referenda to be binding, so that shouldn't be a problem  

Edited July 8, 2022 by BFTD

[Theroadlesstravelled]

More Brexit for some, less Brexit for others and the SNP can shut up.

LAB +4

[ICTChris]

Can’t believe he wasn’t convicted, I watched all of the eight hour GB News special about Beergate and fastidiously kept up with leading political thinker Dan Hodges on this. And now he’s cleared? 

[Billy Jean King]

My idea of left is putting the vast majority of the population who are working class ahead of the interests of capitalists. 
The Scottish Government have limited powers but we are now at a point where there is a choice to be made about free university education for the children of the wealthy and free prescriptions for wealthy pensioners vs vital services for vulnerable people and food and heat for people in poverty. The SNP so far have chosen to prioritise the interests of their electorate over the most in need. That is not a left position.
And no doubt someone is already getting set up to bang on about the costs of means testing. That argument might have stood up a decade ago but in 2022 with the amount of data the government holds on us all it's utter pish wheeled out to close down uncomfortable arguments.

Data can only be used for the purpose it was gathered for. The SG do not have access to any data that would permit means testing on that scale. The one and only reason any benefits are universal is still the sheer cost of means testing. It's a total non starter.

[dirty dingus]

2 hours ago, Detournement said:

My idea of left is putting the vast majority of the population who are working class ahead of the interests of capitalists. 

The Scottish Government have limited powers but we are now at a point where there is a choice to be made about free university education for the children of the wealthy and free prescriptions for wealthy pensioners vs vital services for vulnerable people and food and heat for people in poverty. The SNP so far have chosen to prioritise the interests of their electorate over the most in need. That is not a left position.

And no doubt someone is already getting set up to bang on about the costs of means testing. That argument might have stood up a decade ago but in 2022 with the amount of data the government holds on us all it's utter pish wheeled out to close down uncomfortable arguments.

Yeah I get where your coming from with the means testing for a lot of these policies. Maybe introduce fees on a sliding scale for those who can afford it. When I done my further education it was a European Union grant for people from deprived areas that covered my fees so a scholarship scheme would be good. With travel I'd like to see free local public transport for all permanent residents of Scotland. They also need to get a grip with the amount of shite people don't need at pharmacies.

[Jacksgranda]

38 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Probably, and hopefully the people in cherge have some idea about where we go once the UK's Supreme Court unsurprisingly decides that one of the UK's assets has no right to determine its own future. Despite the impatience from some folk, they're probably progressing at a rate that allows people to see that, yay or nay, Scotland's opinion on this issue is irrelevant - the UK considers that we're in until England decides otherwise.

But I do hope the final throw of the dice isn't, "one more chance, and we'll sign away whatever you like".

Edit: the UK, as we know, considers advisory referenda to be binding, so that shouldn't be a problem  

I can't see how a referendum asking "Should Scotland be an independent country: Yes/No", could be considered advisory.

[dirty dingus]

16 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Can’t believe he wasn’t convicted, I watched all of the eight hour GB News special about Beergate and fastidiously kept up with leading political thinker Dan Hodges on this. And now he’s cleared? 

Woottons heads gone is worth the twitter admission fee alone, trying to say Bozo had a quick bite of a sandwich between meetings 

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Yeah I get where your coming from with the means testing for a lot of these policies. Maybe introduce fees on a sliding scale for those who can afford it. When I done my further education it was a European Union grant for people from deprived areas that covered my fees so a scholarship scheme would be good. With travel I'd like to see free local public transport for all permanent residents of Scotland. They also need to get a grip with the amount of shite people don't need at pharmacies.

I was put on 4 different prescriptions when I was in hospital - 1/a blood thinner (because I was on antibiotics), 2/ beta blockers because they discovered an irregular heart rhthym (which I could have had all my life without it appearing to do me any harm), 3/ fluid tablet as I was lying in bed most of the day, and my ankles and fingers were swelling up and 4/ folic acid tablets as I was low on iron.

8 months later I'm still on all of these, despite no longer being on antibiotics and not lying in bed all day. My last blood tests showed my folic acid as "normal".