What is the point of Labour ?

[Detournement]

34 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

55 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I'm sure Starmer will go lower than this but I dread to think how. 
Selling Liverpool out to the Tories. Fucking sickening. 

Your beliefs sell Scotland out to Westminster (Tories). Equally sickening

What about the SNP wanting to give the Tory controlled BoE power over an independent Scotland's economy?

Possibly too complex for the SNP season ticket holders. 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Just now, Detournement said:

What about the SNP wanting to give the Tory controlled BoE power over an independent Scotland's economy?

Possibly too complex for the SNP season ticket holders. 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

4 hours ago, 101 said:

Is he out his tree? Can't believe there isn't a concerted effort to force him out.

When @Pato mentioned this earlier I jokingly asked if Kier had tweeted his approval. I was actually joking. Fucking hell 

[John Lambies Doos]

What about the SNP wanting to give the Tory controlled BoE power over an independent Scotland's economy?
Possibly too complex for the SNP season ticket holders. 

Guess what, under an independent Scotland you can vote to change that, you could also vote to join the Euro or you could vote for your own currency. Eh, you could even vote to get rid of the SNP too. Until independence is secured, and it will be, the SNP won't ever be shifted.
So, grumble from the sidelines or do something about it.

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Guess what, under an independent Scotland you can vote to change that, you could also vote to join the Euro or you could vote for your own currency. Eh, you could even vote to get rid of the SNP too. Until independence is secured, and it will be, the SNP won't ever be shifted.
So, grumble from the sidelines or do something about it.

Do you ever wonder why French, Greeks, Spanish, Americans, Argentinians, Thais, South Africans etc don't just vote their problems away? Real power isn't impacted by elections. 

As soon as Scotland goes into a large amount of debt in a foreign currency and allows the BoE control over monetary policy it's game over. 

[John Lambies Doos]

Do you ever wonder why French, Greeks, Spanish, Americans, Argentinians, Thais, South Africans etc don't just vote their problems away? Real power isn't impacted by elections. 
As soon as Scotland goes into a large amount of debt in a foreign currency and allows the BoE control over monetary policy it's game over. 

You've lost it m8. I like your contributions to the rugby forum, but just can't fathom your direction on this one.
So, what would you do to get rid of the Tory's and the new labour party. Because they ain't going anywhere?

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said:

You've lost it m8. I like your contributions to the rugby forum, but just can't fathom your direction on this one.
So, what would you do to get rid of the Tory's and the new labour party. Because they ain't going anywhere?

I hope that the political landscape will be shaped by the very real problems in society. I see more hope in people protesting against the police in London and Bristol than people who espouse radical or progressive politics following a bland corporate politician like Sturgeon. I think something like Corbyn will happen again and hopefully lessons will be learned. 

The SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland is shite. It's worse than staying in the UK. There is a case for a progressive fair independent Scotland but it's not on the menu. It's Andrew Wilson's Scotland.

[John Lambies Doos]

I hope that the political landscape will be shaped by the very real problems in society. I see more hope in people protesting against the police in London and Bristol than people who espouse radical or progressive politics following a bland corporate politician like Sturgeon. I think something like Corbyn will happen again and hopefully lessons will be learned. 
The SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland is shite. It's worse than staying in the UK. There is a case for a progressive fair independent Scotland but it's not on the menu. It's Andrew Wilson's Scotland.

But the SNP is not an Independent Scotland, which part do you not get? Your utopian society is easier to build through independence than the status quo. I'd be extremely surprised if the SNP even exist 5 yrs post independence - the views their members have go from extreme left to mid right. It's independence that's the glue that is keeping them together

[Stellaboz]

The SNP is the vehicle TO indy. 

After that, it's up to everyone to create a strong political landscape and make the best of what Scotland can do. 

No doubt it'll be filled with petty idiots, half of whom will demand going back into the worst union of nations ever under England's rule.

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

But the SNP is not an Independent Scotland, which part do you not get? Your utopian society is easier to build through independence than the status quo. I'd be extremely surprised if the SNP even exist 5 yrs post independence - the views their members have go from extreme left to mid right. It's independence that's the glue that is keeping them together

We always hear that on here but it's extremely unrealistic given the large SNP payroll and the Potemkin civil society that is completely based on their patronage. There are no examples of a political class walking away from a functioning power structure like that anywhere. 

As we see continually in the EU, the USA and elsewhere institutions trump elections. If the institutions are designed to favour capital and bureaucracy over the general population then there is no way to overcome it peacefully. The fact that there is little awareness of this in the wider nationalist community is another fact that it's doomed. Any opposition to Wilson's plan will be met by an army of simpletons with Sturgeon memes. 

Independence with BoE control over the economy is societal self harm.

[John Lambies Doos]

We always hear that on here but it's extremely unrealistic given the large SNP payroll and the Potemkin civil society that is completely based on their patronage. There are no examples of a political class walking away from a functioning power structure like that anywhere. 
As we see continually in the EU, the USA and elsewhere institutions trump elections. If the institutions are designed to favour capital and bureaucracy over the general population then there is no way to overcome it peacefully. The fact that there is little awareness of this in the wider nationalist community is another fact that it's doomed. Any opposition to Wilson's plan will be met by an army of simpletons with Sturgeon memes. 
Independence with BoE control over the economy is societal self harm.

Oof, it's the people that will determine, we live in a democracy

[G51]

1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said:

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

We always hear that on here but it's extremely unrealistic given the large SNP payroll and the Potemkin civil society that is completely based on their patronage. There are no examples of a political class walking away from a functioning power structure like that anywhere. 
As we see continually in the EU, the USA and elsewhere institutions trump elections. If the institutions are designed to favour capital and bureaucracy over the general population then there is no way to overcome it peacefully. The fact that there is little awareness of this in the wider nationalist community is another fact that it's doomed. Any opposition to Wilson's plan will be met by an army of simpletons with Sturgeon memes. 
Independence with BoE control over the economy is societal self harm.

Oof, it's the people that will determine, we live in a democracy

Do you remember what happened to Greece when it elected a government that decided it was going to default on it's debt?

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, G51 said:

Do you remember what happened to Greece when it elected a government that decided it was going to default on it's debt?

Yes they voted to default in the referendum and the government ignored the result. Because voting very rarely changes anything significant. 

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

7 minutes ago, Detournement said:

We always hear that on here but it's extremely unrealistic given the large SNP payroll and the Potemkin civil society that is completely based on their patronage. There are no examples of a political class walking away from a functioning power structure like that anywhere. 
As we see continually in the EU, the USA and elsewhere institutions trump elections. If the institutions are designed to favour capital and bureaucracy over the general population then there is no way to overcome it peacefully. The fact that there is little awareness of this in the wider nationalist community is another fact that it's doomed. Any opposition to Wilson's plan will be met by an army of simpletons with Sturgeon memes. 
Independence with BoE control over the economy is societal self harm.

Oof, it's the people that will determine, we live in a democracy

Why don't Americans vote themselves health care and a higher minimum wage? The people want it and they are a democracy by every indicator.

[Dawson Park Boy]

8 minutes ago, G51 said:

Do you remember what happened to Greece when it elected a government that decided it was going to default on it's debt?

Absolutely!

Says it all.

Back into the shackles of the EU and the ECB.

[Anonapersona]

Just now, Detournement said:

Why don't Americans vote themselves health care and a higher minimum wage? The people want it and they are a democracy by every indicator.

How does somebody 'vote themselves health care' in America?

Not going to happen.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

37 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I hope that the political landscape will be shaped by the very real problems in society. I see more hope in people protesting against the police in London and Bristol than people who espouse radical or progressive politics following a bland corporate politician like Sturgeon. I think something like Corbyn will happen again and hopefully lessons will be learned. 

The SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland is shite. It's worse than staying in the UK. There is a case for a progressive fair independent Scotland but it's not on the menu. It's Andrew Wilson's Scotland.

I think this is all fair enough but were you not saying very recently that something like Corbyn would never be allowed to happen again? 

[John Lambies Doos]

Do you remember what happened to Greece when it elected a government that decided it was going to default on it's debt?

Who said anything about defaulting on debt

[Detournement]

17 minutes ago, Anonapersona said:

How does somebody 'vote themselves health care' in America?

Not going to happen.

Exactly I'm highlighting the limitations of elections. 

[Detournement]

9 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

I think this is all fair enough but were you not saying very recently that something like Corbyn would never be allowed to happen again? 

I don't think we will see anyone like Corbyn again who openly holds radical views but there will have to be someone who challenges the status quo eventually. 

Electoralism is still limited in the UK but it's still far better to be a sovereign currency issuing nation.