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What is the point of Labour

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5 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Yeah, there's no inconsistency in recognising it's a compelling and sometimes excellent programme despite the idealism and cloying nature of Sorkin's writing, while also acknowledging that it's given a significant number of the centrist idealists who loved it brain worms along with much of it dating horribly (CJ ranting about affirmative action ruining her father's career prospects comes to mind before we even go near repeat issues like foreign policy and portrayals of women).

Of course it's more of a US issue and obviously those who've allowed one television programme to so heavily influence their worldview are to blame rather than anyone involved in making it. However you can genuinely see a through line from the West Wing's projection of an idealised version of politics where compromise and consensus consistently succeed with good faith actors on all sides finding common ground for the good of democracy despite their ideological differences *Charlie looks on sincerely* to the enduring faith of some Democrats in bipartisanship, politeness, taking Republicans at face value and the importance of strictly abiding by convention even as they've been consistently ratfucked by a party showing absolutely no interest in compromise, precedent or the rule of law for decades.

While the main contributing factor is Blairism, this is repeated in the Labour Party with their belief that a 'moderate, decent Conservative Party' is just waiting to emerge, oust Johnson along with the more mendacious fuckers in cabinet like Patel & Gove, join a customs union with the EU and above all else stop being so mean if Labour just demonstrates that they can work alongside those moderates in the centre ground in the spirit of compromise by, erm, failing to vote against anything the Tories propose no matter how evil. The fact that no Tories are breaking the whip when the government legalises murder and rape by the state somehow hasn't resulted in them accepting the futility of this approach.

That's a really interesting take. Personally, I think it's a little bit too neat. I think it's less likely that a bunch of centrists and centre-leftists who were predisposed to partisanship watched the WW and got a hardon for compromise and acting in good faith, rather than the WW appealing to people who're already predisposed to thinking of the world that way.

Still, it'd be kind of funny if it turned out Aaron Sorkin had a large hand in enabling the birth of a brutal, dumb new right wing politics by writing a show about an idealised centre-left administration. 

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8 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Yeah, there's no inconsistency in recognising it's a compelling and sometimes excellent programme despite the idealism and cloying nature of Sorkin's writing, while also acknowledging that it's given a significant number of the centrist idealists who loved it brain worms along with much of it dating horribly (CJ ranting about affirmative action ruining her father's career prospects comes to mind before we even go near repeat issues like foreign policy and portrayals of women).

Of course it's more of a US issue and obviously those who've allowed one television programme to so heavily influence their worldview are to blame rather than anyone involved in making it. However you can genuinely see a through line from the West Wing's projection of an idealised version of politics where compromise and consensus consistently succeed with good faith actors on all sides finding common ground for the good of democracy despite their ideological differences *Charlie looks on sincerely* to the enduring faith of some Democrats in bipartisanship, politeness, taking Republicans at face value and the importance of strictly abiding by convention even as they've been consistently ratfucked by a party showing absolutely no interest in compromise, precedent or the rule of law for decades.

While the main contributing factor is Blairism, this is repeated in the Labour Party with their belief that a 'moderate, decent Conservative Party' is just waiting to emerge, oust Johnson along with the more mendacious fuckers in cabinet like Patel & Gove, join a customs union with the EU and above all else stop being so mean if Labour just demonstrates that they can work alongside those moderates in the centre ground in the spirit of compromise by, erm, failing to vote against anything the Tories propose no matter how evil. The fact that no Tories are breaking the whip when the government legalises murder and rape by the state somehow hasn't resulted in them accepting the futility of this approach.

Yeah, as GordonEF said, that's a bit too neat. Sorkin's a liberal lefty so in order to make a TV programme on a mainstream channel more balanced he had to have lots of good Republicans. They're be no means all good - "I'll be waiting in the tall grass for you Senator, because people like you are killing the party." The Republican presidential candidate Sorkin wrote is as dumb as a box of frogs and he gets blown away by intelligent elitism. A running feature is the tension between idealism and pragmatism, which Bartlet and Leo fight about, and there are plenty of times they go for pure idealism.

Some of it was also after 9/11, when there was a strong desire for bipartisanship - unfortunately.

Sorkin's last episode aired in 2003, before the Republicans were infected by the Tea Party and went batshit crazy. You see more of his attitude to that in The Newsroom.

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26 minutes ago, CambieBud said:

So....................................erm...............what is the point of Labour?

This wee diversion is relevant to the point of Labour because Labour staffer types are obsessed by the West Wing, and it doesn't do them any good.

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23 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

I thought The Newsroom was saccharine shite. 

You’re entitled to your opinion, even if it is pish.  That’s democracy.

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This wee diversion is relevant to the point of Labour because Labour staffer types are obsessed by the West Wing, and it doesn't do them any good.
I think the ww inspired a lot of people - discussed particularly in relation to the Obama effect.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. That idealised version of public service is a noble one.

My issue with the labour centrists is that they're not doing this for the good of public service - because they don't actually want to change anything. I think they just like being in charge for the sake for it, and creaming off enough for themselves (the new labour mob were full of these c***s, and their brand is politics can't really be compared to sorkin's ideals).

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Andy Burnham actually coming across with some authenticity here. It's like he means what he says it something.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

You’re entitled to your opinion, even if it is pish.  That’s democracy.

There aren't opinions anymore. Just FACT. Everybody is convinced by their own bullshit. It's a problem.

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Andy Burnham actually coming across with some authenticity here. It's like he means what he says it something.
 
 
He regularly comes across like this.

The way he responded to the Hillsborough enquiry calls was very impressive back in the day.

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1 hour ago, DrewDon said:

I thought The Newsroom was saccharine shite. 

 

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

You’re entitled to your opinion, even if it is pish.  That’s democracy.

Can't imagine where Drew got this take from

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10 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

Can't imagine where Drew got this take from

Yeah, that was the scene that finally did it for me. Absolutely gone at the handshake. 

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I enjoyed the West Wing but it's pretty tough to argue parts of it weren't unintentionally vomit-inducingly cringey.

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The opening scene of the show was excellent, as was their handling of the gabby giffords shooting.

Fully agree that the bin laden stuff went too far. But it had some good bits overall.

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20 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

Can't imagine where Drew got this take from

Fucking hell, think I'd got bored of it by that stage.

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39 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

He regularly comes across like this.

The way he responded to the Hillsborough enquiry calls was very impressive back in the day.

He's a very prolific actor. Keir Starmer could learn a thing or two from him on how to at least act slightly less right wing.

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1 hour ago, DrewDon said:

Yeah, that was the scene that finally did it for me. Absolutely gone at the handshake. 

Judging a show based on one or two scenes is like judging your team based on one or two performances.

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Judging a show based on one or two scenes is like judging your team based on one or two performances.
He's not judging it on one or two scenes you old fanny. He's watched it from the beginning, and that was the scene (which wasn't early on in the series) he's finally came to his judgment.

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1 minute ago, pandarilla said:
29 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:
Judging a show based on one or two scenes is like judging your team based on one or two performances.

He's not judging it on one or two scenes you old fanny. He's watched it from the beginning, and that was the scene (which wasn't early on in the series) he's finally came to his judgment.

Aggressive for a wimp.

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