What is the point of Labour ?

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Granny D....you stated that you were a member of the Labour Party for 'over' 20 years, as well as serving as a councilor in that time. You now support the SNP. Has anyone called your claims of LP membership etc 'lies'? Maybe they have and I missed it, apologies if so. There have been other posted discussing their past membership of the LP, and now support for the SNP. Again no shouts of lies, you never voted that way, my erse etc.

In other words, you changed your mind, which is of course your right, and it happens in politics. Presumably there were red lines which the LP crossed for you, which caused you to leave, same for me with the SNP.

I have been called a 'liar', 'thick', a 'moran', a 'troll', a 'sock puppet', 'deluded' 'having brain worms', 'clearly insane', a 'fantasist', and 'clearly knowing nothing about politics'....and that's just in a few pages of this thread. At no point have I responded in kind with personal insults, but rather have offered a counter opinion. I know that this is an SNP forum in all but name, but still.

Anyway, given it is the season of goodwill and all that....I hope you all stay safe during this time, and have a good festive period.

Firstly, same to you.

Secondly, at no point did I call you a liar neither did I imply this.  No idea where this liar talk has come from tbh.

From my birth in 1955 until now the majority of people of Scotland have voted Tory once but seen subject to Tory rule for the vast majority of these years.  The only way to avoid that is independence.

Even under Labour we have had a right-wing war mongering PM.

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I admire your (imo delusional) belief in this but as someone who was a member I can’t look past the SEC initially acting above members to say no to another indyref, significant party figures putting arbitrary dates on even considering one, and then the members voting pretty conclusively for Jackie Baillie to be Deputy Leader over Matt Kerr. It’s a party that doesn’t want to change at the top and a party that doesn’t know how to change at the bottom.

This.

They have not shifted in the 26 years I've left - of anything even more staunch.

[Guest Jedi]

Cheers @Granny Danger...the 'liar' part came from another couple of posters who said 'SNP member my erse', and also 'there is no way you voted Yes in 2014', in addition to 'you are trolling by trying to gain sympathy for your views by falsely claiming to have been an SNP member'....and enjoy the game tonight, but mon the Killie 

@NotThePars Absolutely. They have to change course at some point...following another (looks like heavy) defeat in May, surely there has to be a rethink. To survive in any shape or form the LP would have to, in parliament say, fine there is a clear mandate for Indy Ref 2...get on with it. They don't have to support Independence, but not block the Ref. I am not a fan of Jackie Baillie either. Incidentally, you obviously moved from a position as a LP member to supporting the SNP/Independence....was it just the mess the party was in which changed your mind?

@KingRocketman II    As I have said about a zillion times, in a choice between Indy and status quo-I support Indy and will vote Yes, so don't see the 'tosh' in being critical of the SNP, leaving the party, but given that choice, after so long, still backing Yes, in those circumstances. Following the hit to the economy of both Covid and Brexit which will take some time for both Scotland and England to recover from, to me, it would be a safer option at this stage though, to have proper devolution, to enable Scotland to make its own economic decisions, until such times as the economy can stabalise again-could be 10 years, who knows. 

@Stormzy

Cheers, and many thanks for your kind words...have a good one.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jedi

[NotThePars]

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

@NotThePars Absolutely. They have to change course at some point...following another (looks like heavy) defeat in May, surely there has to be a rethink. To survive in any shape or form the LP would have to, in parliament say, fine there is a clear mandate for Indy Ref 2...get on with it. They don't have to support Independence, but not block the Ref. I am not a fan of Jackie Baillie either. Incidentally, you obviously moved from a position as a LP member to supporting the SNP/Independence....was it just the mess the party was in which changed your mind?

I'm fairly certain the lesson Scottish Labour will learn next year will be sacking Leonard and carrying on as normal for a while. Maybe they'll move towards supporting Indyref2 but I wouldn't trust them to do that and to do it sincerely.

No, I voted Yes in 2014, supported the SNP and did some campaigning during the 2017 GE then switched to Labour at a UK level and Greens at a Scottish level until December of 2019. I was a Slab member beyond until this year but cancelled my DD which doesn't scrub your membership lol so I think I'm still technically here. I might actually be a member of CfS and Momentum. 

I went from an optimistic nationalist in 2014 to a resigned pessimist believing it's the best of the bad options.

 

Are you a member?

[San Starko Rover]

Jedi best wishes for the season to you too. I think you’re being extremely optimistic in thinking UK Labour are going to change as up here they’ve become so entrenched in their view of ‘Union at all costs’ that I can’t see a way back for them. We’ve got Uber Unionists running the SLAB and it’s pushed most Pro independence members out the party, Labour people in coalition with the Tories at Council level and even Labour people telling their voters to vote Tory to stop the SNP! As for Devo Max or federalism they pitch this up here to try and win votes but you rarely hear it mentioned in England which says a lot to me. Where’s Sir Keir’s demands Boris lives up to the Vow. It’s also all very vague we’ll look at it maybe sometime if you’re good.

As I said earlier Labour should be miles ahead of this Circus of Tories running Westminster in the Polls but you’re correct level going into next year with Brexit is not terrible, however Sir Kier has also had a very easy ride from the MSM so far who are distracted with Covid and Brexit. Look at how they demonized Corbyn how long until the ‘Sir Keir eats Israeli babies’ or he ‘receives Christmas cards from Gerry Adam’s’ stories appear in the gutter press then see his ratings drop.

I admire your optimism that they can and will change and deliver Devo Max for Scotland but having spent many years working down South I’ve found too many down there who I wouldn’t even consider Uber right will not vote Labour no matter what. It doesn’t matter what Boris or his band do the answer is always a shrug of the shoulders and “Labour would do worse”.

[Guest Jedi]

3 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Are you a member?

I am now, yes, but only very recently.

Given that its reckoned to be around 40% of Labour voters supporting Independence, with 77% in favour of a 2nd Ref,it seems that the leadership can't dodge the question forever. They must have learned by now that in any straight fight on the constitution, if they continue to back the union, that the Tories will always 'out unionist' them. As we know well, the Scottish Tories have one policy 'stop a 2nd Referendum' and er...thats about it.

Unless Labour move to a position of accepting a 2nd Ref if that is the majority position (which it obviously is,at present), and offering a serious devolution alternative, not a Vow, not a 'more vague powers for the Scottish parliament', but real fiscal control, and they get serious about replacing the House of Lords with a Council of the Islands, then I agree, that they will remain largely irrelevant in Scottish politics.

I think that would be a great shame, not only as it leaves Holyrood without 'real' opposition, and the chance to broaden the debate on Scotland's constitutional future, but also means that they don't get a chance to be heard on issues like social justice, equality, public services, education, health, justice, and how to rebuild after Covid. Otherwise the SNP will continue to have free reign to set the agenda.

I think Scotland's constitutional future deserves a wider discussion, not simply Andrew Wilson's plan versus No Ref, but....lets face it the union as we know it is dead, what are the different options.....can the SNP offer something 'as well as; the Growth Commission (be great if they could), what would 'real' devolution look like? Given that groups like Common Weal and the RIC are very unhappy with the Growth Commission report...what are they adding to the table as well? What does Independence look like post-Brexit and post-Covid?.....I would love all these options to be out there and up for discussion.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jedi

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I am now, yes, but only very recently.

Given that its reckoned to be around 40% of Labour voters supporting Independence, with 77% in favour of a 2nd Ref,it seems that the leadership can't dodge the question forever. They must have learned by now that in any straight fight on the constitution, if they continue to back the union, that the Tories will always 'out unionist' them. As we know well, the Scottish Tories have one policy 'stop a 2nd Referendum' and er...thats about it.

Unless Labour move to a position of accepting a 2nd Ref if that is the majority position (which it obviously is,at present), and offering a serious devolution alternative, not a Vow, not a 'more vague powers for the Scottish parliament', but real fiscal control, and they get serious about replacing the House of Lords with a Council of the Islands, then I agree, that they will remain largely irrelevant in Scottish politics.

I think that would be a great shame, not only as it leaves Holyrood without 'real' opposition, and the chance to broaden the debate on Scotland's constitutional future, but also means that they don't get a chance to be heard on issues like social justice, equality, public services, education, health, justice, and how to rebuild after Covid. Otherwise the SNP will continue to have free reign to set the agenda.

Or we can just gain independence, PR and have as many parties as we like, with each vote counting.

[Guest Jedi]

We can.....but would it not be good to bring a range of views to the table, to broaden discussion on what happens post a Yes vote?

[welshbairn]

Just now, Jedi said:

We can.....but would it not be good to bring a range of views to the table, to broaden discussion on what happens post a Yes vote?

It's a bit boring when you just rehash every Better Together argument based on the Treasury being uncooperative right till the end, against their interests, and assume the EU would be unwelcoming too. You throw around worst case scenarios like confetti, and pretend you're in two minds about it all.

[Guest Jedi]

Fair dos then.....just a Yes vote required, and everything else can just sort itself out sometime down the line after that. I think the 'it will all be alright on the night' is boring as well, but its a game of opinions.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jedi

[ICTJohnboy]

Just now, Jedi said:

Fair dos then.....just a Yes vote required, and everything else can just sort itself out sometime down the line after that.

 

A bit like Brexit then?

[Guest Jedi]

Pretty much....after all, no plan needed for Indy....just vote it through.

[ICTJohnboy]

18 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Pretty much....after all, no plan needed for Indy....just vote it through.

 

You might find this plan from 2013 interesting. It certainly provided much more detail than the UK govt plan for Brexit

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/

[Guest Jedi]

Loved the White Paper.....its so 2013 now though.....Andrew Wilson is the box office show in town instead.

[ICTJohnboy]

A few tweaks here and there and it will be just fine for Indyref2.

You'll be so impressed you'll probably end up voting Yes.

[KingRocketman II]

4 hours ago, Jedi said:

 

@KingRocketman II    As I have said about a zillion times, in a choice between Indy and status quo-I support Indy and will vote Yes, so don't see the 'tosh' in being critical of the SNP, leaving the party, but given that choice, after so long, still backing Yes, in those circumstances. Following the hit to the economy of both Covid and Brexit which will take some time for both Scotland and England to recover from, to me, it would be a safer option at this stage though, to have proper devolution, to enable Scotland to make its own economic decisions, until such times as the economy can stabalise again-could be 10 years, who knows. 

I didn't say it was tosh to be critical of the SNP - you have mis-read. you state, and gave stated a zillion times that in a choice between indy and status quo you will vote "yes" - assuming yes is for Scotland to be independent. However you qualify this by saying that due to covid and Brexit you would seek further devolution or proper devolution to strengthen the economy - therefore a desire to remain part of the UK in those circumstances and retain the status quo. 

You are a bit all over the place tbh. 

[Baxter Parp]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

We can.....but would it not be good to bring a range of views to the table, to broaden discussion on what happens post a Yes vote?

The unionist parties have no interest in acknowledging the possibility of independence never mind putting forward ideas on the shape of an independent Scotland.

[Guest Jedi]

Its a good article, to be fair. Highlights the difficulties inherent in the proposals, particularly how the English part of it is managed...an English 'parliament', or slicing up the regions? how to balance an unbalanced population share across the UK. He is right about it being an appeal to those in Scotland who are more likely to vote Tory just to stop Indy Ref 2, by offering that middle ground alternative. He is also right that it has been a talking shop in previous mainfesto's but needs to have real substance this time around.

[S7C]

Is there a politician more insufferable than the sanctimonious p***k that is Paul Sweeney? 

[NotThePars]

Is there a politician more insufferable than the sanctimonious p***k that is Paul Sweeney? 

He doesn’t help himself at all. For every time he says or does something commendable there’s a weird meltdown or galaxy brain take in someone’s Twitter replies.