What is the point of Labour ?

[SANTAN]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

We'd certainly be back in by now to wave goodbye.

I have no idea what that means but I'm presuming you ironically didnt wanna say yes. 

[NotThePars]

How do I get the specific brainworms which make the reapplication process and likely short term austerity of post-indy Scotland a bridge too far but have you somehow believe that we can overcome the insane forces which kneecapped and caricatured Corbyn’s mild social democracy as ‘communism’ and set us on the trajectory to Hard Brexit in order to rejoin the EU, build a progressive society, and have that all accomplished by Keir Starmer, who hasn’t even shown the conviction to stand behind his ten pledges he made to members less than 12 months ago?

[Gordon EF]

10 hours ago, Jedi said:

So we can have two posters talking about their long time commitment to/membership of the Labour Party (even over 20 years), and its 'perfectly reasonable' to change their minds/leave (in addition to being 'truthful'....but not the SNP...why is that?

Indeed, I have been reading folk on Twitter talking about leaving Labour after 40, and sometimes 50 years of membership,with no questioning of their 'truthfulness'.......any criticism of the SNP is 'trolling', but other parties...fair game.

I have also said on a few occasions that given a binary choice of Independence or status quo that I would (again) vote Yes, while expecting the first years of Indy to be a bumpy ride...but would still prefer that Devo Max offer.

Because in this case it would be like a lifelong Labour member saying ...

"given a binary choice of Labor or Tories that I would (again) vote Labour, while expecting the first years to be a bumpy ride...but would still prefer that Lib Dem offer."

[SANTAN]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

How do I get the specific brainworms which make the reapplication process and likely short term austerity of post-indy Scotland a bridge too far but have you somehow believe that we can overcome the insane forces which kneecapped and caricatured Corbyn’s mild social democracy as ‘communism’ and set us on the trajectory to Hard Brexit in order to rejoin the EU, build a progressive society, and have that all accomplished by Keir Starmer, who hasn’t even shown the conviction to stand behind his ten pledges he made to members less than 12 months ago?

During the Corbyn autopsy they would find that the kneecapping by "insane forces" was not helped by the victim repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot. 

[NotThePars]

During the Corbyn autopsy they would find that the kneecapping by "insane forces" was not helped by the victim repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot. 

Amazed to find out that two things can be true at the same time

[SANTAN]

16 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

Amazed to find out that two things can be true at the same time

 

Yeah, nuance is really exciting like that. 

[Fullerene]

Every book I have ever read about communist countries has a recurring theme - suspicion and paranoia.
Whatever utopia they are trying to achieve is constantly sabotaged by dark forces working against them.
Not just capitalist countries but enemies within.  Trust nobody.

When people in the Labour Party talk the same way, it makes them sound like communists too.

I am well aware that MSM hates the Labour Party.  They are not hiding in the darkness, they are out in the open and it is a disgrace how much influence they have.
Similarly there were opponents in the same party as Corbyn because FPTP forces them to be.
So yes, there were people who opposed Corbyn but that was known from the start.  It does not mean everyone was against him.  

The Labour Manifesto of 2017 seemed reasonable enough.  If a different leader had offered up the exact same thing, it might have done better.

The main objection to Corbyn was not that the party was too left wing.  It was the clumsiness, dithering and amateurism that caused the problem.
Too many people thought Corbyn was too incompetent to be leader.
In fairness, Johnson is equally incompetent but he is a snake oil merchant and simply better at fooling people.

[NotThePars]

Damn I can’t imagine why Lenin and Castro felt besieged much in the same way that I can’t imagine why Labour leftists felt they had an uphill battle when paratroopers were shooting pictures of Corbyn, civil servants were briefing the press that they would work against a Corbyn government, journos were repeatedly being fed anti-Corbyn lines from inside the party when they weren’t just making up stories and incidents on a regular basis alongside manufacturing a racism crisis that was somehow unique to one specific faction in one party.

[John Lambies Doos]

So we can have two posters talking about their long time commitment to/membership of the Labour Party (even over 20 years), and its 'perfectly reasonable' to change their minds/leave (in addition to being 'truthful'....but not the SNP...why is that?
Indeed, I have been reading folk on Twitter talking about leaving Labour after 40, and sometimes 50 years of membership,with no questioning of their 'truthfulness'.......any criticism of the SNP is 'trolling', but other parties...fair game.
I have also said on a few occasions that given a binary choice of Independence or status quo that I would (again) vote Yes, while expecting the first years of Indy to be a bumpy ride...but would still prefer that Devo Max offer.

What exactly is the Devo Max offer?

[Guest Jedi]

The Devo Max offer is of course still awaited...

In 2014 the Yes Campaign obviously had the White Paper, which was an upbeat, optimistic view (rightly so), of Scotland's future as an Independent nation (inside the EU). It deserved to win.

By the time of the next Indy Ref (2022.23, or 24, who knows), in place of the White Paper we will have the Andrew Wilson paper. We will still be suffering the economic effects of Covid, and of course we will have had 1, 2 or 3 years of Brexit torpedoing the economy as well.

Does it require 'brainworms' to imagine that Labour could be in a position to win the next GE? That's clearly a matter of opinion. Does it require brainworms to worry about the circumstances of the Indy offer this time? Matter of opinion. Is an Independence offer still better than the status quo, if that is all that is on offer....again, yes.

The Labour party has a lot of work to do, to say the least over the next few years. In Scotland, it should...

1. Rename itself the Independent Labour Party, and be much more autonomous from Westminster

2. Replace Richard Leonard as leader

3. Make it clear that, in the event of an SNP majority in May, not stand in the way of a 2nd Referendum

4. Come up with a credible middle ground between Independence and the status quo.

You can write all that off as 'fantasy' again, but its put forward as part of a discussion on where I would 'like' to see Labour going.

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The Devo Max offer is of course still awaited...

In 2014 the Yes Campaign obviously had the White Paper, which was an upbeat, optimistic view (rightly so), of Scotland's future as an Independent nation (inside the EU). It deserved to win.

By the time of the next Indy Ref (2022.23, or 24, who knows), in place of the White Paper we will have the Andrew Wilson paper. We will still be suffering the economic effects of Covid, and of course we will have had 1, 2 or 3 years of Brexit torpedoing the economy as well.

Does it require 'brainworms' to imagine that Labour could be in a position to win the next GE? That's clearly a matter of opinion. Does it require brainworms to worry about the circumstances of the Indy offer this time? Matter of opinion. Is an Independence offer still better than the status quo, if that is all that is on offer....again, yes.

The Labour party has a lot of work to do, to say the least over the next few years. In Scotland, it should...

1. Rename itself the Independent Labour Party, and be much more autonomous from Westminster

2. Replace Richard Leonard as leader

3. Make it clear that, in the event of an SNP majority in May, not stand in the way of a 2nd Referendum

4. Come up with a credible middle ground between Independence and the status quo.

You can write all that off as 'fantasy' again, but its put forward as part of a discussion on where I would 'like' to see Labour going.

I’d like to see SLab going in the bin.  The good news is they’re on their way.

[NotThePars]

The Devo Max offer is of course still awaited...
In 2014 the Yes Campaign obviously had the White Paper, which was an upbeat, optimistic view (rightly so), of Scotland's future as an Independent nation (inside the EU). It deserved to win.
By the time of the next Indy Ref (2022.23, or 24, who knows), in place of the White Paper we will have the Andrew Wilson paper. We will still be suffering the economic effects of Covid, and of course we will have had 1, 2 or 3 years of Brexit torpedoing the economy as well.
Does it require 'brainworms' to imagine that Labour could be in a position to win the next GE? That's clearly a matter of opinion. Does it require brainworms to worry about the circumstances of the Indy offer this time? Matter of opinion. Is an Independence offer still better than the status quo, if that is all that is on offer....again, yes.
The Labour party has a lot of work to do, to say the least over the next few years. In Scotland, it should...
1. Rename itself the Independent Labour Party, and be much more autonomous from Westminster
2. Replace Richard Leonard as leader
3. Make it clear that, in the event of an SNP majority in May, not stand in the way of a 2nd Referendum
4. Come up with a credible middle ground between Independence and the status quo.
You can write all that off as 'fantasy' again, but its put forward as part of a discussion on where I would 'like' to see Labour going.

No I’m saying it’s brain worms to think that Starmer and the wing of the party that’s currently holding sway has any of the mettle or desire to make the changes you want it to make at the national level. I’m interested to know if you are a member because it’s very much “LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS” internally right now. The devolution stuff that say your Paul Sweeneys have put some thought into is not what’s gaining traction atm, it’s Ian Murray, Anas Sarwar and co who are directing traffic for the party up here and the dominant point is still “no referendum til 2026”. I’m curious to know who you think specifically is going to advocate for these things you want and how they’re going to direct the leadership of the party to follow suit.

Also, who do you think should replace Richard Leonard and who do you think is likely to replace Leonard? I don’t think he’s remotely capable of being the leader of a resurgent party but the problem for Scottish Labour is that they have nobody who’s capable of doing that. Even the members or politicians in the party who are vaguely good have no interest in being leader and I don’t think they’re qualified enough to take on that shit show.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Henderson to deliver .....

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Just now, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

 

Neck and neck is actually good at this stage.

[Guest Jedi]

Granny D....you stated that you were a member of the Labour Party for 'over' 20 years, as well as serving as a councilor in that time. You now support the SNP. Has anyone called your claims of LP membership etc 'lies'? Maybe they have and I missed it, apologies if so. There have been other posted discussing their past membership of the LP, and now support for the SNP. Again no shouts of lies, you never voted that way, my erse etc.

In other words, you changed your mind, which is of course your right, and it happens in politics. Presumably there were red lines which the LP crossed for you, which caused you to leave, same for me with the SNP.

I have been called a 'liar', 'thick', a 'moran', a 'troll', a 'sock puppet', 'deluded' 'having brain worms', 'clearly insane', a 'fantasist', and 'clearly knowing nothing about politics'....and that's just in a few pages of this thread. At no point have I responded in kind with personal insults, but rather have offered a counter opinion. I know that this is an SNP forum in all but name, but still.

Anyway, given it is the season of goodwill and all that....I hope you all stay safe during this time, and have a good festive period.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jedi

[John Lambies Doos]

@Granny Danger. [mention=50845]Jedi[/mention] is calling you a liar

[Guest Jedi]

1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said:

@Granny Danger. [mention=50845]Jedi[/mention] is calling you a liar
 

Except of course that I'm not...   rather pointing out the inconsistencies (from some).....Granny D-long time Lab member, changed his mind (believe, as I also do)....me-long time SNP member-changed mind about the party....lies.Interesting that was the one point you picked up from my last post JLD.

On the question of who I would like to replace Leonard @NotThePars, at the moment, probably Monica Lennon, as I think she has done reasonably well as an MSP. I don't disagree with your point about the current direction of travel with Sarwar, Murray etc opposing a 2nd Ref.

That clearly has to change. As said I think the LP in Scotland have a lot of work to do, to say the least. To continue to oppose a 2nd Ref in the face of an SNP majority, is, I believe, a mistake. It would be undemocratic to try and block it in those circumstances. 

I hope that the LP can sort itself out in Scotland, principally because I believe that every govt needs an effective opposition, to hold it to account. We haven't had that for some time in Scotland now, but a simple continuation of SNP dominance without any questioning, or challenge, isn't good for any parliament. And yes, we had decades where Labour similarly went unchallenged properly in Scotland and that wasn't good either....the current situation is just like swapping one party for another.

[KingRocketman II]

18 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Except of course that I'm not...   rather pointing out the inconsistencies (from some).....Granny D-long time Lab member, changed his mind (believe, as I also do)....me-long time SNP member-changed mind about the party....lies.Interesting that was the one point you picked up from my last post JLD.

On the question of who I would like to replace Leonard @NotThePars, at the moment, probably Monica Lennon, as I think she has done reasonably well as an MSP. I don't disagree with your point about the current direction of travel with Sarwar, Murray etc opposing a 2nd Ref.

That clearly has to change. As said I think the LP in Scotland have a lot of work to do, to say the least. To continue to oppose a 2nd Ref in the face of an SNP majority, is, I believe, a mistake. It would be undemocratic to try and block it in those circumstances. 

I hope that the LP can sort itself out in Scotland, principally because I believe that every govt needs an effective opposition, to hold it to account. We haven't had that for some time in Scotland now, but a simple continuation of SNP dominance without any questioning, or challenge, isn't good for any parliament. And yes, we had decades where Labour similarly went unchallenged properly in Scotland and that wasn't good either....the current situation is just like swapping one party for another.

being an SNP member rather than voter means that you fundamentally agreed with independence.

Many people can understand someone not fully agreeing with the way the SNP are evolving and that person no longer being an SNP member for those reasons - but that person still believes in independence. Its difficult to believe any recent SMP member who  believed in independence now considering over the last few years that Labour actually best represents Scotland's interests and those interests are best achieved (according to SLAB and Westminster Lab) by remaining in the UK. That is utter tosh I am afraid. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by KingRocketman II

[SANTAN]

52 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Granny D....you stated that you were a member of the Labour Party for 'over' 20 years, as well as serving as a councilor in that time. You now support the SNP. Has anyone called your claims of LP membership etc 'lies'? Maybe they have and I missed it, apologies if so. There have been other posted discussing their past membership of the LP, and now support for the SNP. Again no shouts of lies, you never voted that way, my erse etc.

In other words, you changed your mind, which is of course your right, and it happens in politics. Presumably there were red lines which the LP crossed for you, which caused you to leave, same for me with the SNP.

I have been called a 'liar', 'thick', a 'moran', a 'troll', a 'sock puppet', 'deluded' 'having brain worms', 'clearly insane', a 'fantasist', and 'clearly knowing nothing about politics'....and that's just in a few pages of this thread. At no point have I responded in kind with personal insults, but rather have offered a counter opinion. I know that this is an SNP forum in all but name, but still.

Anyway, given it is the season of goodwill and all that....I hope you all stay safe during this time, and have a good festive period.

Excellent post and you're broadly right about this place. There are a handful of decent posters but there are plenty more useful idiots that escape criticism because they are pro Indy.

I'm not pro Indy but I've enjoyed all your posts and appreciate you posting the rationale behind your judgements which I was sadly unsurprised to see not taken at face value or given the benefit of the doubt. 

The forum could use some balance so stick around, enjoy your festive period too!

[NotThePars]

I hope that the LP can sort itself out in Scotland, principally because I believe that every govt needs an effective opposition, to hold it to account. We haven't had that for some time in Scotland now, but a simple continuation of SNP dominance without any questioning, or challenge, isn't good for any parliament. And yes, we had decades where Labour similarly went unchallenged properly in Scotland and that wasn't good either....the current situation is just like swapping one party for another.

I admire your (imo delusional) belief in this but as someone who was a member I can’t look past the SEC initially acting above members to say no to another indyref, significant party figures putting arbitrary dates on even considering one, and then the members voting pretty conclusively for Jackie Baillie to be Deputy Leader over Matt Kerr. It’s a party that doesn’t want to change at the top and a party that doesn’t know how to change at the bottom.