What is the point of Labour ?

[Baxter Parp]

'Excess' deaths in relation to Covid...3rd highest on European averages....'working' with charts and graphs. Didnt even mention the care home situation in Scotland as well.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18618596.coronavirus-scotland-third-highest-rate-excess-deaths-europe-england-spain/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54989613
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-in-scotland-country-third-worst-in-europe-for-excess-deathshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54989613-in-pandemic-9ctj9g9pd
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scotland-third-highest-excess-death-22442287
 
 

1/30th July
2/Graphic: 29th May
3/404 Not Found
4/30th July

[Guest Jedi]

Not an argument that Scots shouldn't govern themselves at all, more a reaction to most things in the SNP world being wonderful.

No government is perfect they all make mistakes.However the SNP as a party remain pretty immune to any polling drop due largely I think to the lack of any effective opposition...something which every parliament in the world needs.

[DA Baracus]

Labour don't want more devolution. Their nonsense about 'devo max' and garbage like 'The Vow' are all just lies. They want Scotland to remain as it is. Their actions show this, such as working with their brethren the Tories up here and squawking the same pish that their Tory pals in Westminster do about the issue. They will never be in a position to 'deliver' it even if they wanted to (they don't).

Pretty astonishing naivety if anyone seriously thinks Labour want more devolution, let alone think that they can deliver it. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by DA Baracus

[doulikefish]

Has this Gordon Brown fellow ever been in a position of power to offer more devolution to jockoland? This time they must be telling the truth....or was it the time before ? Anyway is the House of Lords still a thing im sure that was getting reformed by the red tories aswell that must have happened 

[renton]

10 hours ago, Jedi said:

Again, I would stress that I am not against Independence as an idea, and I was a member of the SNP for 36 years after all (despite the dismissal of that 'claim' by some).

However, the Growth Commission Report is not for me....the one section I do like is the emphasis on increased immigration for Scotland, as that makes sense. 10 years of cutting public services, to get to the 'magic; 3% figure though.....not to mention the issues I still think we would have in rejoining the EU. Given both of these, it would be  Independent to trade with? under Wilson's prospectus. If we are outside the EU and have to negotiate trading relations with our largest trading partner in England at the same time, all during a period when the economy will take some time to recover from Covid (both Scotland and England).

That's my reasoning for hoping for a proper devolution proposal this time, which I can only see a Lab govt being able to deliver. I can hardly 'switch' from 36 years of wanting Scotland to run our own affairs, to desiring anything less than pretty much FFA, while sharing defence and foreign policy.  Again though, if Labour don't get this right, and its a choice between Independence and the status quo, with nothing else tangible on the table, then obviously I would have to bite the bullet with the Growth Commission, and hope that after a decade we do turn the corner as an Independent nation, back in Europe, and start to get our finances in order.

I still don't get why you'd want Scotland to follow the rUK line on defence and foreign policy. Do you not think there are geopolitical differences in how the two would approach the world?

[NotThePars]

We share the same island with England ergo we ought to continue selling arms to bomb Yemeni children and build vanity carriers.

[San Starko Rover]

I still don't get why you'd want Scotland to follow the rUK line on defence and foreign policy. Do you not think there are geopolitical differences in how the two would approach the world?

 

Also means keeping the nuclear submarine base just up the road from most of our population.

 

[San Starko Rover]

Not an argument that Scots shouldn't govern themselves at all, more a reaction to most things in the SNP world being wonderful.

No government is perfect they all make mistakes.However the SNP as a party remain pretty immune to any polling drop due largely I think to the lack of any effective opposition...something which every parliament in the world needs.

 

I don’t think the SNP are wonderful, like all parties they have their failings and areas they should be doing far better in. Sturgeon is by far the best leader of all the UK parties in my opinion but there’s others in the party I’m not impressed with. The fact is outside the SNP and the Greens all the other parties are run by the Westminster political leaders and are nothing more than the often used branch office. They will put Westminster policy above what’s best for Scotland or what the Scottish people want as proven by the Scottish Tories and Brexit.

 

The Union doesn’t work for Scotland it is not and has never been a Union of equals we are merely a colony of England and it’s certainly how we’re seen by many down south. I will not accept Devo Max, Federalisation or any other half measure short of independence. We are a country and there are dozens of countries far worse off than Scotland that manage just fine.

 

I might even vote for Labour or even the Lib Dem’s or Tories after we’re an independent country but I won’t even bother listening to their policies until we are not dictated to by our neighbouring country Christ we have to ask their permission for a vote to leave.

 

To me Labour are mad not to back independence Scotland was Labour through and through and after independence they’d likely be the party of power here. The current government at Westminster is a circus yet Labour are barely level with them in the polls as England leans further right than ever. The SNP up here don’t see drops in the polls because of lack of opposition they don’t see drops in the polls as their votes are from pro independence voters who see them as the only option, no independence supporter is going to switch to Labour, Tories or Lib Dem’s with their hardline Unionist stance.

[NotThePars]

Labour absolutely wouldn’t be the party in power after independence because they’re a rump party from members to parliamentarians. They’re not coming back from irrelevancy. There might be a new left of centre party after indy but it’ll be dominated by SNP bodies.

 

[AndyM]

7 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Labour absolutely wouldn’t be the party in power after independence because they’re a rump party from members to parliamentarians. They’re not coming back from irrelevancy. Their might be a new left of centre party after indy but it’ll be dominated by SNP bodies.

Correct, Labour in its current form are done. The centre and left  is occupied by the SNP. Post indy they may lose some Mhari Black types to a socialist grouping but I don't see them going to Labour. There's just way too much bad blood there. 

 

[San Starko Rover]

Labour absolutely wouldn’t be the party in power after independence because they’re a rump party from members to parliamentarians. They’re not coming back from irrelevancy. Their might be a new left of centre party after indy but it’ll be dominated by SNP bodies.

I disagree, you’re correct that initially Scotland would be SNP but to me the SNP are a party of politicians from the other parties who agree on one policy above all else. I expect the SNP would break up after independence. The first decade would be SNP but after that would the SNP even exist?

[Gordon EF]

Labour in their current form certainly wouldn't be winning any post-independence elections. There's no doubt the SNP would win the first one relatively handsomely. Longer term, Scottish politics would move away from voting patterns and alliances/divisions along constitutional lines and there would almost certainly be a place for a 'Labour-like' party, especially since PR and independence would open up the possibility of coalition governments between what the current SNP and Labour parties become post-independence.

[AndyM]

Just now, San Starko Rover said:

 

I disagree, you’re correct that initially Scotland would be SNP but to me the SNP are a party of politicians from the other parties who agree on one policy above all else. I expect the SNP would break up after independence. The first decade would be SNP but after that would the SNP even exist?

 

As a moderately centre left  Social Democratic Party yes, they would. They'd probably be in power as Labour and Tories would be trying to find out where they actually fit  in the Post Indy political landscape beyond being a hurt locker for ex British Unionists angry ay their fellow countrymen.

[NotThePars]

I don’t know what the argument is. The SNP and Labour are in many ways the same party divided by the constitutional issue. At their core they believe in the same sort of things. After independence whoever emerges as the dominant centre left party will likely be the party of government but those figures dominating it, if they are governed by people in the current parliament, will be SNP politicians. Richard Leonard, Jackie Baillie, Monica Lennon, Kezia Dugdale etc etc are not going to be key figures in a governing party, imo, ever.

 

Eta: can people delete their quote tweets I don’t want to be reminded of autocorrect bodying me with an incorrect usage of “there”

[Gordon EF]

My bet would be that in the short term, the SNP would actually move a little bit to the left of where they are now whilst still trying to be a bit of a 'steady-hand' through the first few years of independence. That would almost certainly require a bit of compromise  which would likely alienate those on the left of the party, which medium term would probably move them towards the centre and see whatever rises from the ashes of SLAB and the Greens grow with those leaving the SNP. I think the SNP will likely still exist in some form but unless they form a fairly sound ideological position, they'd likely get more squeezed over time from both the left and the right.

the Liberal Democrats will not survive it.

[San Starko Rover]

As a moderately centre left  Social Democratic Party yes, they would. They'd probably be in power as Labour and Tories would be trying to find out where they actually fit  in the Post Indy political landscape beyond being a hurt locker for ex British Unionists angry ay their fellow countrymen.

I think Labour could recover after a period but you’re right they’d need to get over their Angry British Unionists stand. If they were to then pitch their policies for Scotland post independence there’s a lot of ex Labour voters out there. Yes they’ve probably burned their bridges with some due to their Union at all costs stand but they could win some back.

[San Starko Rover]

I don’t know what the argument is. The SNP and Labour are in many ways the same party divided by the constitutional issue. At their core they believe in the same sort of things. After independence whoever emerges as the dominant centre left party will likely be the party of government but those figures dominating it, if they are governed by people in the current parliament, will be SNP politicians. Richard Leonard, Jackie Baillie, Monica Lennon, Kezia Dugdale etc etc are not going to be key figures in a governing party, imo, ever.
 
Eta: can people delete their quote tweets I don’t want to be reminded of autocorrect bodying me with an incorrect usage of “there”

Ducking autocorrect [emoji23]

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Looking forward to some of this post-independence when we get some new parties.

'Thankfully we don't have the Tories anymore. Anyway, I quite like the Christian Democratic Alliance manifesto'

[oneteaminglasgow]

15 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Parties I'd like to see in an independent Scotland:.

• 'We'll campaign to our dying breath to rejoin the union' ultra right wing party. As kids went to school in a suit an briefcase.

 

They could join up with the ultra-Christian “SNP forcing kids to be trans” parties you get in the Highlands the now.

[San Starko Rover]

Parties I'd like to see in an independent Scotland:

• Chad green party. Top shagger student wing.
• 'I suppose we'll have to make the best of it' right wing party. Have all had sex precisely 1 (one) time.
• 'We'll campaign to our dying breath to rejoin the union' ultra right wing party. As kids went to school in a suit an briefcase.
• Orkney autonomous region party. Raids the mainland.
• Shetland autonomous region party. Raids Orkney.
• Na Eilean Siar autonomous region party. Hates the Gaelic separatists.
• Gaelic Separatists. Only speak in Gaelic. Scrape the english names off road signs. Don't even acknowledge those other guys hate them.

 

Somehow Murdo Fraser will cling onto a seat with one of them despite being an unflushable turd of a man.