What is the point of Labour ?

[Antlion]

4 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

They're completely irrelevant up here but please just watch this video and tell me you don't care if the Tories or Labour are in power down south

https://www.theguardian.com/society/commentisfree/video/2017/may/30/living-with-disabilities-youre-treated-worse-than-a-farm-animal-video

Having Labour in power might delay (or just mitigate) stuff like this for a short time, but the cost will be similar or worse horrors doubling when the Tory cockroaches return in greater numbers after that time.

[Antlion]

4 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

So you'd say to someone in that position: because I want Scottish independence and view Labour as a threat to that, you have to keep climbing up the stairs with legs that don't work and you have to keep choosing which of your multiple prescriptions to actually fill because you can't afford them all. Is that a fair summary?

I don’t think I mentioned Scottish independence in that post (and for what it’s worth I don’t think Labour are the threat to Scottish independence they were in 2014 - they have since plunged largely into irrelevance on that score). I simply pointed out that getting Labour in might save that person you speak of today only for the Tories to kill his entire family tomorrow. Are you seriously suggesting that having a Labour government is perpetuity is anything more than an absolute fantasy? Getting emotive about the horrors the Tories are inflicting isn’t going to stop the cycle of short-term Labour followed by long-term and increasingly brutal and harmful Tory rule.
 

What you seem to be getting riled up about here is that people don’t agree that sticking a blob of germolene on a bullet wound is a good idea when the gunman is just in another room reloading.

[SandyCromarty]

2 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

All this tells you is that actions have permanent consequences and it's not just a case of flipping a switch. Shipbuilding was hammered in Scotland and other competitors elsewhere filled that gap. That isn't Labour's fault and really it's getting further and further away from the central point being discussed which is if you've got 2 choices at westminster and one of them is killing people on purpose through institutional neglect and the other lot didn't do that last time they were in power then it's a no brainer who you want in charge in westminster.

With that I take it you are inferring generally, personally I view the westminster parliament as an anathema that has been historically detrimental to Scotland over centuries.

What I want is an Independent Scotland with no active part or collusion with westminster which I regard as an enemy of Scotland.

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we Scots are looked upon as second class citizens and a nuisance within the so called UK political and ruling class framework.

The Labour party has been as much a part of that as have been the conservatives and liberals.

In all truthfulness would you be willing to say that any average Scot has an affinity or the ability to identify with Starmer or The Clown Boris.

Yet we all know that we have an affinity and know the background of the likes of Sturgeon and Swinney etc in the Scottish Government, as these are our people and not some privileged arseholes.

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, SandyCromarty said:

Yet we all know that we have an affinity and know the background of the likes of Sturgeon and Swinney etc in the Scottish Government, as these are our people and not some privileged arseholes.

The SNP is also hoaching with privileged arseholes.. Just because the people in charge down south are much worse doesn't make the sun shine out of the arse of Swinney and Blackford.

[Ludo*1]

I like Blackford, but he's been a massive downgrade on Angus Robertson. The English media and the Tories just view him as a joke figure. Robertson made sure they feared him. (As much as an SNP rep can be 'feared' in Westminster) Robertson was a big loss.

Swinney is just grossly incompetent. He's made an absolute arse with education and he made an absolute arse of the leadership. Should be nowhere near an important role.

[Bairnardo]

The most desirable Westminster outcome for Scottish nationalists is surely a Labour government propped up by SNP votes? Demand the referendum and it will be given. If it’s a No, demand ongoing bribes ala the DUP. Win/win.

Saying you’d rather see the Tories in is idiotic. They’ve presided over four and a half years of unprecedented bedlam, and that’s being kind and ignoring the coalition austerity years. Polls show little more than a nudge to Yes, and Scotl

Yeah. You have to keep a foot in both camps considering we might never get Indy, and in that regard, its anyone but the fucking scum vermin c***s that are the Conservative and Unionist party.

[Wee Willie]

On 29/06/2020 at 16:30, MixuFruit said:

The context of the discussion is given a choice between the tories and labour being in charge in London, which would you prefer, that's all.

Fair do's but as neither you or I can vote in England then our thoughts are irrelevant.

22 hours ago, Wee Willie said:

I understand what you're saying but c'mon one is as bad as the other.

If the last GE had went Labours way then this cnut would have been the Scottish Secretary of State.

The mind boggles!

 

Would you have 'welcomed' this dick as Scottish Secretary if Labour had won the last GE?

20 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Because if both conservatives and labour are keeping trident but only the conservatives are going to go out of their way to cause the early deaths of many of their own citizens then the issue of trident is an irrelevance.

Do you really believe that?

It's irrelevant in England but it's still based in Scotland so it will always be relevant to Scottish politics.

[Wee Willie]

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

#1 no, because the SNP would likely support a labour government but would never support a tory one.

#2 yes, trident's going nowhere in yours or my lifetimes. You're howling into the wind wasting energy on it. The thing you can affect is the living circumstances of everyday people and it's a simple moral choice that if the SNP can prop up Labour for however long, then that'll lift those circumstances.

#1 Cast your mind back to the last GE where the English media said that Labour would do a deal with the SNP and there was uproar down south.

Labour would do a deal with the LibDems or form a minority government but it would be political suicide for them to do a deal with the SNP.

Can you really imagine Labour giving up Trident and whatever else the SNP wanted? What would the English electorate do? Riot?

And can you really imagine that sod Ian Murray as Scottish Secretary

#2 yes, trident's going nowhere in yours or my lifetimes. You're howling into the wind wasting energy on it.

But you profess to want independence so why am I howling in the wind regarding Trident.

Don't you think Trident should be above politics and every sane person (at least in Scotland) should want rid of it irrespective of their politics.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Wee Willie

[NotThePars]

Reckon the SNP would gleefully sack off any Trident demands for a referendum when it came to the horse trading between a hypothetical minority Labour administration. It's a useful wedge at this point rather than a heartfelt belief, imo.

[renton]

4 hours ago, Wee Willie said:

#1 Cast your mind back to the last GE where the English media said that Labour would do a deal with the SNP and there was uproar down south.

Labour would do a deal with the LibDems or form a minority government but it would be political suicide for them to do a deal with the SNP.

Can you really imagine Labour giving up Trident and whatever else the SNP wanted? What would the English electorate do? Riot?

And can you really imagine that sod Ian Murray as Scottish Secretary

#2 yes, trident's going nowhere in yours or my lifetimes. You're howling into the wind wasting energy on it.

But you profess to want independence so why am I howling in the wind regarding Trident.

Don't you think Trident should be above politics and every sane person (at least in Scotland) should want rid of it irrespective of their politics.

The new Dreadnought (no, seriously) class of submarines are on their way. The money is spent. There is no practical means towards UK unilateral disarmament.

 

[Wee Willie]

6 hours ago, Wee Willie said:

#1 Cast your mind back to the last GE where the English media said that Labour would do a deal with the SNP and there was uproar down south.

Labour would do a deal with the LibDems or form a minority government but it would be political suicide for them to do a deal with the SNP.

Can you really imagine Labour giving up Trident and whatever else the SNP wanted? What would the English electorate do? Riot?

And can you really imagine that sod Ian Murray as Scottish Secretary

#2 yes, trident's going nowhere in yours or my lifetimes. You're howling into the wind wasting energy on it.

But you profess to want independence so why am I howling in the wind regarding Trident.

Don't you think Trident should be above politics and every sane person (at least in Scotland) should want rid of it irrespective of their politics.

 

2 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Of course, you'd expect tories and friendly press to do nothing more but as time goes on and people keep seeing Scotland handling things better than England (or at least perceive this to be the case) then it's going to lose its power. The lib dems are I think gubbed for a coupld of decades, folk had a good look at what Jo Swinson was offering and quite pitilessly said no thanks, so Labour will need to do some kind of deal with the SNP if they can get majority votes on stuff that isn't bounded by EVEL. I would imagine getting rid of that would be way further up the list of demands than removing trident from Gare Loch. Nobody would riot.

I'm pragmatic about trident because the SNP are committed to joining NATO and won't be difficult about where those subs are housed if as you'd expect they end up being the party that forms a government post independence. Of course nobody wants nuclear weapons. It's absolutely tilting at windmills to talk about it at the moment.

ffs You and I bide in Scotland and you're easy oasy about Trident. One nuclear disaster at Faslane and Scotland as a country is fcuked. Central Belt a no-go area for thousands of years. I'm concerned for my kids and grandkids future and no about the politics. That's why I said it should be above politics. Any sane person in Scotland should want rid of it. Are you sane?

1 hour ago, renton said:

The new Dreadnought (no, seriously) class of submarines are on their way. The money is spent. There is no practical means towards UK unilateral disarmament.

 

But there's at least one Scot who is 'pragmatic' regarding Trident.

Pragmatic: dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations

 

[Wee Willie]

12 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

I don't really know what else you want me to say. The odds of some terrible nuclear accident happening tomorrow are very long. The odds of a child waking up hungry because of tory policy tomorrow are, infuriatingly, very short.

It's a complete no brainer who you want in charge in London on this basis.

What about the day after tomorrow?

The point is Trident is in Scottish waters and any accident (however remote) would affect the Scottish Central Belt.

It's a complete no brainer who you want in charge in London on this basis.

Including this guy

[Wee Willie]

18 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Like I say I don't know what else to say to you. By any metric Labour would be an improvement on Tories in London. Both of them won't budge on trident while the UK is the UK so there's absolutely no point fighting that battle for the time being.

But we bide in Scotland and we should be shouting it from the rooftops.

I want my kids and grandkids to grow up in a nuclear free Scotland and the first thing to go is Trident.

All the SNP politicians whenever they are in the media should remind everyone that they are the only main-stream party who wants rid of Trident.

I posted earlier an article where Labour are saying that the Tories are cutting back on the UK Defences and the Labour party would stop that and upgrade the Defence budget.

The Labour party ALWAYS abstained whenever the SNP put forward a proposal in the UK parliament (and the Scottish one)

I've asked you several times regarding Ian Murray as Scottish Secretary but you have declined to answer.

To sum up:  the Labour Party are the Tory Party mark II.

[Boo Khaki]

12 hours ago, Wee Willie said:

What about the day after tomorrow?

The point is Trident is in Scottish waters and any accident (however remote) would affect the Scottish Central Belt.

 

On the plus side, a catastrophic accident that left the entire central belt uninhabitable for eons is one of the few things that would see Trident removed from Faslane ASAP.

Silver linings and all that.

[Wee Willie]

23 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

I've nothing further to say to you about it.

I'm disappointed as I was enjoying our wee tête-à-tête. But fair do's. I'll just post this to end our conversation. I copied it from another forum. It's from 2014 and shows what a  Labour government is really like.

A former United Kingdom Ambassador has revealed how Tony Blair’s Labour Government secretly connived with Whitehall officials in order to transfer a huge area of Scottish Territorial waters – containing oil fields – into English ownership.  Craig Murray, who is the UK’s former Ambassador to Uzbekistan, has explained how in 1999 the then Labour Government secretly reclassified 6000 square miles of Scottish sea as English waters.

Remember that? I dinnae hae the numbers but I think Scottish Labour MPs approved of that.

 

[Wee Willie]

11 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

On the plus side, a catastrophic accident that left the entire central belt uninhabitable for eons is one of the few things that would see Trident removed from Faslane ASAP.

Silver linings and all that.

If it happens then you'll be fine. Just wear your Covid mask.

[Wee Willie]

5 hours ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

Bizarre how an uncontroversial statement like 'a labour government is marginally preferable to a Tory one' can lead to this level of argument. 

They may be shit but the vast majority of the people on this thread would be members/supporters if we were English and I think there's a fairly fairly widespread acceptance among grassroots labour members (as opposed to MPs etc) down south that in the opposite situation most of them would likely be pro-indy. Scottish Labour being a weird right wing rump that never really got taken over by the Corbynites probably doesn't help in that regard, in that Ian Murray or whoever can basically set policy on Scotland despite being totally out of step with most of the UK membership. 

That's true but my last few posts have been pointing out what the Labour party means from a Scottish perspective.

They and the Tories are twa cheeks o' the same arse.

They have the same policies towards Scotland and also Labour and the Tories have little influence in Scotland.

Surely you could add Richard Leonard to that clique and you could also add that they are out of step with most of the Scottish electorate.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Wee Willie

[lichtgilphead]

6 hours ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

Bizarre how an uncontroversial statement like 'a labour government is marginally preferable to a Tory one' can lead to this level of argument. 

They may be shit but the vast majority of the people on this thread would be members/supporters if we were English and I think there's a fairly fairly widespread acceptance among grassroots labour members (as opposed to MPs etc) down south that in the opposite situation most of them would likely be pro-indy. Scottish Labour being a weird right wing rump that never really got taken over by the Corbynites probably doesn't help in that regard, in that Ian Murray or whoever can basically set policy on Scotland despite being totally out of step with most of the UK membership. 

My brother (who lives in London) votes Green. If I stayed in England, so would I if the choice boiled down to Green or Labour, even if the Green candidate had little chance of winning.

I would only vote Labour in a tight Tory/Labour marginal, and would hold my nose as I did so.

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, lichtgilphead said:

My brother (who lives in London) votes Green. If I stayed in England, so would I if the choice boiled down to Green or Labour, even if the Green candidate had little chance of winning.

I would only vote Labour in a tight Tory/Labour marginal, and would hold my nose as I did so.

Who's your brother's MP?

[lichtgilphead]

6 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Who's your brother's MP?

Whilst it's not that important, given the general crapness of the Labour party, It was Catherine West at the last election. Given that he voted Green, I know that he would be delighted to have the opportunity to vote SNP again.

General election 2019: Hornsey and Wood Green
Labour    Catherine West    35,126    57.5 %   
Liberal Democrats    Dawn Barnes    15,884    26.0%   
Conservative    Ed McGuinness    6,829    11.2 %   
Green    Jarelle Francis    2,192    3.6%    
Brexit Party    Daniel Corrigan    763    1.2 %   
Christian Peoples Alliance    Helen Spiby-Vann    211    0.3%
Independent    Salah Wakie    100    0.2 %   
Labour hold    

He bought a new house just before the lockdown. He's now in the Enfield Southgate constituency (Lab).  I doubt he'll vote Labour there, even though it is significantly more marginal