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What is the point of Labour ?


pawpar

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That's the old style Conservatives.
Truth is the Brexit/New Right type voters would happily ditch Scotland.  They see us much the same way as they viewed Europe.  Dark forces conspiring against them while siphoning off English taxes.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If and when Scotland leaves the Union it be because we are 'encouraged to leave' if not plain ejected from it.  It won't be entirely our own choice.  Exactly the same way that joining it wasn't.
After the last referendum I have absolutely no confidence whatsoever in this country to do what's right by it.  That's why despite being pro independence I am in no hurry to have a 2nd referendum.  There is absolutely nothing to indicate the result would be any different and a second referendum defeat would completely kill independence off for who knows how long.
SNP poll numbers have stalled and its hard to see them going up much more.  Unless one of the other major parties comes out as pro independence you can't see much more than a status quo.  The only people increasing their vote is going to be the Conservatives. 
They have increased their vote two fold in my constituency, one which formerly held Ravenscraig steelworks and was always extremely hostile to the Conservatives.  To the younger generation the 80's are ancient history and left wing ideas are, in my opinion, going to be in retreat as the generations move forward, just the same way as old style Conservatism is on it's last legs now. 
Society is entirely focused on personal gain, wealth, property, lifestyle.  I can't see the political climate going any other way long term. 
I would hazard the increase in the Tory vote around Motherwell will have much more to do with 35 years+ religious bigots of the blue persuasion who paradoxically previously protest-voted SNP to oppose 'Catholic' Labour than any youth vote.

I know dozens of them in my locale.
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5 hours ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

I don't see that happening. We can't, and shouldn't be aiming to, win the support of The Sun. We need to be better at getting our message across via New Media, among the many other challenges the party faces.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying a substantial amount of people were traumatised by 5 years of being relentlessly battered in the press and hope or believe Starmer will get an easier ride. I'm not convinced as there's enough rope there for the press to hang him with the second he tries and apparently presses on with Corbyn's agenda.

4 hours ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

His electoral platform was to the left of Brown's. He has embraced nationalisation again, as any Labour leader should.

Now, obviously, he could just be saying that to get elected. And if he turns into another Tony Blair I'll be fucking off out of the party sharpish. But more than happy to give him a chance, as I do any incoming Leader, even though I didn't vote for him.

He's soft left the key word being soft. He'll crumble the instant he gets any pushback from the right of the party, from the press, or from his backers. That's my prediction and I doubt it'll change. 

3 hours ago, Day of the Lords said:

Every single time Labour have elected a new leader, either in Scotland or UK wide, we've heard endlessly how this "spells disaster for the SNP". Every single one of them has been utterly bitch-slapped repeatedly until being replaced by another inept fucking no-mark. Starmer will be no different.

Starmer's policy for Scotland is electoral suicide. Basically "if the SNP win the elections next year we might have to consider that a mandate for another referendum." Complete and utter lunacy.

 

I'm looking forward (especially after Starmer's dribble about not "opposing for opposition's sake") to seeing the Democrats and Starmer's Labour competing to see who can be the most craven political party in the West. As a mate of mine said, Starmer's Labour Party are aspiring to be the Jiminy Cricket on the shoulder of a Conservative Party perpetually in power.

 

Edited by NotThePars
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1 hour ago, JamieThomas said:

Can confirm that having the only two viable options as a right wing party and a centre right party is a fantastic way to run things.

People don't have to vote for the Tories or the Lib Dems.

Here is Starmer's platform. That whole "common ownership" thing sound centre-right to you? 

It is a radical platform for a party which is still offering radical alternatives.

https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/

 

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6 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

People don't have to vote for the Tories or the Lib Dems.

Here is Starmer's platform. That whole "common ownership" thing sound centre-right to you? 

It is a radical platform for a party which is still offering radical alternatives.

https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/

 

I wonder why it says 'common' and not public......

 

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43 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

People don't have to vote for the Tories or the Lib Dems.

Here is Starmer's platform. That whole "common ownership" thing sound centre-right to you? 

It is a radical platform for a party which is still offering radical alternatives.

https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/

 

The problem here is that I don't believe a solitary fucking word of it.

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2 hours ago, JamieThomas said:

Can confirm that having the only two viable options as a right wing party and a centre right party is a fantastic way to run things.

A left wing party will never win in the UK now. When was the last time a party with a left wing agenda won an election in Britain? Probably well over 50 years ago.  A loathing of foreigners and / or foreign influence on the UK has taken over from having a more equal society as the main driver in voting by a stack of previous  Labour voters.

Edited by Hampden Diehard
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4 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

A left wing party will never win in the UK now. When was the last time a party with a left wing agenda won an election in Britain? Probably well over 50 years ago.  A loathing of foreigners and / or foreign influence on the UK has taken over from having a more equal society as the main driver in voting by a stack of previous  Labour voters.

I was an active member of the Labour Party for 20 years.  The main reason I left was because of Blair and Labour’s unwillingness to condemn him.  The reason I joined the SNP, 20 years after leaving the Labour Party, was an acceptance that the UK will never elect a left wing political party and are very unlikely to support any socially and politically progressive political party.

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5 hours ago, Antlion said:

It’s not going to make a blind bit of difference anywhere else in the UK. Starmer might be more acceptable to the Home Counties, but they’re not going to vote for even a centre-right Labour party until they get tired of the Tories (and that ennui will take about fifteen-twenty years to set in, depending on how complacent the Tories get). 

You are ignoring one major factor - Events!

Nobody knows entirely what will happen in the next 5 years.

The Tories will have to make a success of Brexit.  They won't be able to blame Starmer.  He was never in favour of it.

Also they have to make a success of getting out of this current health crisis with a solution that fits their ideology better than a solution that the Labour Party might have suggested.  For example, the whole notion of big government to the rescue is anaethema to many of them.

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2 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

You are ignoring one major factor - Events!

Nobody knows entirely what will happen in the next 5 years.

The Tories will have to make a success of Brexit.  They won't be able to blame Starmer.  He was never in favour of it.

Also they have to make a success of getting out of this current health crisis with a solution that fits their ideology better than a solution that the Labour Party might have suggested.  For example, the whole notion of big government to the rescue is anaethema to many of them.

I’d love to share your optimism, but I have no doubt that the morons who vote Tory (by that  I mean those who won’t even benefit from their “I’m all right, Jack - f**k everyone else” policies) will no doubt swallow the spin put on any disastrous events. Brexit going wrong? That’s the EU’s fault, not funny old “Boris”. Recession? Immigrants and foreigners, not loveable Uncle B. Unnecessary deaths caused by the benefits system? Immigrants and people who deserve to die anyway. Coronavirus causing more deaths than necessary? Look, isn’t Boris funny but really so so clever - and besides, foreigners and immigrants and the bloody EU bullying us.

I don’t for a second underestimate the stupidity of large swathes of the electorate in swallowing the lines that will be pumped out by Tory HQ. Would love to be proved wrong, but I can’t see it.

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7 hours ago, Detournement said:

Scotland is too rich in natural resources for the UK to give it up willingly.

The EU was Britain's primary trading partner with hundreds of thousands of jobs directly linked with it.  Look what happened.

You are assuming we are dealing with rational politics but clearly we aren't.  

It's also likely that North Sea oil reserves will be exhausted in our lifetimes, oil prices are hardly stable, look at the very low prices currently (UK oil production is loss making at current prices), and you also have to look at how energy technology is going to develop over the coming decades - an unknown factor - but it's likely alternative energies will be more important than presently.  

Scotland's oil wealth is finite and running down by the day.  Even when applying a common sense approach there will come a time, not too far in the future, when it won't be such a big problem for Westminster to 'lose it', North Sea oil revenues have declined massively over a ten year period, down more than 90%.   

In terms of independence we need to start thinking about a post oil economy.   Essentially we've already lost our chance to be an oil rich nation.  

Edited by Ya Bezzer!
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