What is the point of Labour ?

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Of course I am, I'm not a Labour voter.

You’re suggesting every Labour voter is a bad person?

Who do you think people who live in England should vote for?

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

When was the last time that the UK had a genuine Socialist PM ?

Jim Callaghan ? 

If those inside the Momentum bubble get their way and anoint another true-blood Socialist as leader, then Labour are truly fucked as any kind of credible force.

[Bully Wee Villa]

I think a woman or BAME candidate could get elected, so long as they didn't make a big deal of their gender/race. We have already had two women PMs, though, admittedly, they were both arseholes.

People like the feeling of "look how non-sexist/racist I am", but don't want to be reminded about the evils of sexism/racism or Britain's colonial past and feel guilty.

Personally, I'd love a Prime Minister who called racists racist, really annoyed idiots like banana who think women are a bad thing, or wanted to be honest about the seedier elements of Britain's past rather than just banging on about how we won the war every ten minutes.

But they'd have zero chance of getting elected. Just as Barack Obama got elected President but, say, Jesse Jackson never would have.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Bully Wee Villa

[Bully Wee Villa]

13 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

When was the last time that the UK had a genuine Socialist PM ?

Jim Callaghan ? 

If those inside the Momentum bubble get their way and anoint another true-blood Socialist as leader, then Labour are truly fucked as any kind of credible force.

I think Gordon Brown was Socialist as a youngster but was persuaded to take a more "pragmatic" approach when in power.

I think Britain can be persuaded to have a Socialist PM. The last election was about Brexit. In the 2017 election, Labour got more votes than they had under Miliband or Brown. Someone without Corbyn's personal toxicity could have won, on a fairly left-wing platform.

The next election won't be about Brexit. I have to believe that Britain could elect a Socialist PM if they didn't have Corbyn's baggage and were able to engage with people better.

If the choice is between a blue capitalist party or a red capitalist party there doesn't seem much point in me staying a Labour member.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Bully Wee Villa

[zidane's child]

3 hours ago, Sir Tarmo Kink said:

 

Given the strong Tory vote in England, I think it’s quite clear they knew what they were voting for. The Remainers are obviously upset by this, understandably, but that’s not a reason to have another vote.

You’re right though, I think Leave would win more convincingly this time.

 

My opinion on this now is that I hope Boris goes for the hardest Brexit possible and every Tory voter deserves what they get whatever happens.

The same also applies to the NHS, trade, benefits etc.

Vote Tory, Get Tory.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Just now, zidane's child said:

My opinion on this now is that I hope Boris goes for the hardest Brexit possible and every Tory voter deserves what they get whatever happens.

The same also applies to the NHS, trade, benefits etc.

Vote Tory, Get Tory.

What have those of us that didn't vote Tory done to deserve that?

[zidane's child]

Just now, Bully Wee Villa said:

What have those of us that didn't vote Tory done to deserve that?

I agree with you - done nothing to deserve it.

But he has a big majority and will get stuff through quite easily.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Oh, I agree. It's all very depressing.

[zidane's child]

In regards to the Labour leadership race,

I've liked Keir Starmer for a few years and was really impressed with the way he would debate with Brexit secretaries (Davis, Raab and Barclay). I can recall him tearing the Repeal Bill to shreds back in 2017.

A former DPP, he can scrutinise detail and cut through the BS.

He gets my vote.

I don't agree that the next leader "has to be a woman", I'd much rather they found the right candidate with the right qualities.

 

[NotThePars]

6 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

He's a remainer though. Facebook will just tell folk he's going to undo Brexit and that's him fucked.

 

Expanding on a flippant point but the fact 42 of 46 seats that Labour lost were Leave voting probably hamstrings him if he runs.

 

 

[Bully Wee Villa]

I don't know. We will have left the EU by the next election. People will be arguing over something else by then.

[Detournement]

Starmer helped cover up the deaths of Iain Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menzes. 

I don't see the members going for him. 

[ICTChris]

This has probably been covered already in this thread post-Election but hey ho.

I don't think it's about saying that Labour needs a right-wing leader or a left-wing leader or a centrist leader.  These distinctions aren't getting to the heart of the problems that Labour have., which are many.  One is that Labour can't produce leadership candidates who have an understanding of the country that they want to lead.  Corbyn and Miliband were quite similar in that respect, both of them come from a world that is far, far away from the 'Red Wall' seats that Labour lost ground in (both in 2017 and 2019 btw).  No-one within Labour since the late 2000s has given any sense of having any sort of feel for normal places in Britain.  There isn't really any connection from the party to these places and there certainly isn't any connection from the people around Corbyn to them.  The clip of Alan Johnson saying that the working classes have always been a disappointment to the likes of Jon Landsman is spot on, if you look at things through the prism that the Corbynites do you miss a huge part of what motiviates people and defines them.  Labour have to elect a leader who has a feel for their own country and doesn't give off the aura of someone who can't wait to get back to London after visiting Derbyshire or Bishop Auckland.  I'm not much of a fan of the SNP or the First Minister but you can tell Nicola Sturgeon likes this country, even the parts of it that don't vote for her, and feels comfortable in every part of it.

Another issue is competence.  Labour's manifesto took loads of policies that were popular and that people like, dumped them all in it and said "there's yer dinner".  Well, voters aren't stupid, they know that governments can't do everything, they are aware that things need prioritising and it's hard to enact change.  If you just say "you name it, we'll do it" people know you are at it and they also know that claiming the top 5% are the only pepole who'll have to pay is a crock.  The most effective political campaigns are targetted - New Labour had five points, they put them on a business card and based everything around them.  They were easy to understand and relevant to people.  Boris Johnson said "Get Brexit Done" - vote for me, I've got a deal and if I get a majority I'll get it through and we'll be out.  And he got his majority and he'll do it.

This ties into messaging, you have to be clear and truthful.  What was Labour's message in the campaign?  A conspiracy theory - Boris will sell the NHS to Trump?  Free stuff - we'll nationalise the railways, and Openreach, and give free broadband and stop austerity?  A People's Vote - we'll renegotiate then have a vote and our leader will remain neutral but there won't be any option if you don't like our deal but to Remain?  It was a total mess and voters obviously saw that.  I'm sure someone can tell me what Labour's economic policy was but I don't remember hearing it.  I'm not even sure what a left-wing alternative really looks like nowadays - end austerity but to be replaced with what?  New Labour-style free markets to fund public services?  Old school nationalisations?  State directed modernisation?  Trying to build a new industrial skills base?  Labour haven't produced anything that says they are a coherent party who have ideas for the future that tie into the lives of people, even in their heartland areas let alone anywhere else.

I think that the Labour Party is kind of in a quandry.  The New Labour approach is finished, the Socialist Campaign Group approach is finished.  What's next?  Is there anyone else in the party with an idea for the future?  All the proposed leaders look like yesterday's men and women to me.

[Granny Danger]

21 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

He's a remainer though. Facebook will just tell folk he's going to undo Brexit and that's him fucked.

 

By the next election the rUK might be scrambling to get back into the EU.

[NotThePars]

8 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

The clip of Alan Johnson saying that the working classes have always been a disappointment to the likes of Jon Landsman is spot on, if you look at things through the prism that the Corbynites do you miss a huge part of what motiviates people and defines them.  Labour have to elect a leader who has a feel for their own country and doesn't give off the aura of someone who can't wait to get back to London after visiting Derbyshire or Bishop Auckland.  I'm not much of a fan of the SNP or the First Minister but you can tell Nicola Sturgeon likes this country, even the parts of it that don't vote for her, and feels comfortable in every part of it.

 

 

I'm not accusing you of arguing this but this is the fundamental logic of the authentocratic centre in the Labour Party. The working classes in the regions are a homogenous bloc of simple folks who care more about their country and popular culture than economics or intellectual concerns who can be over with an accent and doing legitimate concerns. I do think electing someone from outside of London is a good start to redressing the problem of London's hegemony but the major battle coming will probably be to what extent that alone can begin to rectify Labour's problems.

This decline has been happening since 2001, however, apart from a brief upshot in 2017 which was maybe in part because Labour then realised that Brexit was fundamentally a revolt of the so-called 'left behinds' which forced Westminster to take notice of many communities for the first time since Thatcher. I think the pivoting to a People's Vote was a mistake and fundamentally hamstrung the leadership. While I understand them then attempting to make the election about more than Brexit it was clear that it still remained the fundamental issue dividing the country which coloured the campaign, made Corbyn look even more dithering and non-committal and made the party look like it was ignoring the stated concerns of the electorate and talking down to them about what they should be concerned about.

[Bully Wee Villa]

18 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

By the next election the rUK might be scrambling to get back into the EU.

No chance. People will never admit that they were wrong. If everything goes to shit, people will hide behind the "it's not that bad, we've survived worse" mantra that I've been hearing for the last three years, blame the EU for sabotaging us or just fall back on the tried and tested tactic of having a go at immigrants.

We won't be back in for a generation, and even suggesting it would be a guaranteed election-loser.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Bully Wee Villa

[Granny Danger]

19 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

No chance. People will never admit that they were wrong. If everything goes to shit, people will hide behind the "it's not that bad, we've survived worse" mantra that I've been hearing for the last three years, blame the EU for sabotaging us or just fall back on the tried and tested tactic of having a go at immigrants.

We won't be back in for a generation, and even suggesting it would be a guaranteed election-loser.

I don’t have a crystal ball so I cannot predict with any certainty.  However if Brexit turns out to be as bad as I think it could it might force people to realise their mistake.  I suppose we will know in 4 or 5 years time.

[zidane's child]

2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I don’t have a crystal ball so I cannot predict with any certainty.  However if Brexit turns out to be as bad as I think it could it might force people to realise their mistake.  I suppose we will know in 4 or 5 years time.

I'm trying to think of an example that may cause them a reaction to think that they have made a mistake.

e.g. long queues at airports but I have a feeling they may still round an blame the EU and say "they're punishing us for leaving"

Terrible example, but I hope it gets my point across.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

I don’t have a crystal ball so I cannot predict with any certainty.  However if Brexit turns out to be as bad as I think it could it might force people to realise their mistake.  I suppose we will know in 4 or 5 years time.

Who do they blame now when things go wrong?

That's who they'll blame then.

[ICTJohnboy]

2 hours ago, zidane's child said:

 

I don't agree that the next leader "has to be a woman", I'd much rather they found the right candidate with the right qualities.

 

 

Totally agree.

There's some kind of an obsession with the idea that the next labour leader "has to be a woman". I get the impression that in some circles even Dianne Abbot would be eagerly welcomed to the top spot.

As you say, the right candidate with the right qualities whatever the gender.