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pawpar

What is the point of Labour

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1 hour ago, Detournement said:

They have a position. Customs union and regulatory allignment. Which is where the government is about to end up after 18 months of bluster. Labour doesn't want to join the EEA or have a second vote. They were in favour of a meaningful vote in parliament. Those are positions.

There are very legitimate reasons for left wingers to be against EU membership.

 

 

Regulatory alignment means accepting EU regulations without input. Customs union means continuing freedom of movement. Corbyn has clearly stated that neither is acceptable. There is nothing between his position and May's.

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2 hours ago, Detournement said:

Labour have a clear strategy of focusing on issues that directly effect voters. Housing, transport, health (especially mental health), education etc.

Brexit is still fairly abstract to the vast majority and is essentially constant background noise. It wasn't a factor in the 2017 GE and by the next GE it'll be done.

I’m not sure if you’re being serious or not.

Brexit will have a negative impact on the economy regardless of who is in power, if it’s a hard Brexit you can replace ‘negative’ with ‘disasterous’.

That in turn will have an impact upon the services that any future government can provide, regardless of the colour of that government.  A diminishing tax base together with rising unemployment is not good news.

Corbyn’s ‘jobs friendly Brexit’ line is as meaningless and pitiful as anything the Tories have come up with.  Thankfully it looks like his own supporters in Momentum and Unite are beginning to apply pressure.

 

 

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1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Regulatory alignment means accepting EU regulations without input. Customs union means continuing freedom of movement. Corbyn has clearly stated that neither is acceptable. There is nothing between his position and May's.

Customs union doesn't mean freedom of movement. Look at Turkey.

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1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

I’m not sure if you’re being serious or not.

Brexit will have a negative impact on the economy regardless of who is in power, if it’s a hard Brexit you can replace ‘negative’ with ‘disasterous’.

That in turn will have an impact upon the services that any future government can provide, regardless of the colour of that government.  A diminishing tax base together with rising unemployment is not good news.

Corbyn’s ‘jobs friendly Brexit’ line is as meaningless and pitiful as anything the Tories have come up with.  Thankfully it looks like his own supporters in Momentum and Unite are beginning to apply pressure.

 

 

The UK is an extremely wealthy country. No deal would obviously disrupt the economy was already a disaster based on escalating private debt and continually wringing more out of workers for less. I'm confident that progressive taxation, a state investment bank delivering fiscal expansion and cracking down on tax havens would outweigh the negative effects of whatever deal we end up with. Creating an economic structure fit for the 21st century is more important than worrying about BMW's supply chain.

The primary achievement of the EU has been to drive down the share of GDP taken by workers in wages. That has been pretty much covered up by Chinese slave labour providing us with cheap consumer goods but the EU is fully committed to Neoliberalism forever. It's not going to change and it'll eventually collapse when it becomes clear to the southern Europeans that they can only end austerity by leaving the Eurozone.

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Brexit might ironically prolong the EU if the threat of other countries seceding prevents the EU from cracking the whip on places like Portugal that are tentatively avoiding EU demands to implement further budgetary cuts.

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Corbyn addressing the Dutch Labour Party

 

Quote

My message for our European sister parties is simple: reject austerity or face rejection by voters.

If our parties look like just another part of the establishment, supporting a failed economic system rigged for the wealthy and the corporate elite, they will be rejected – and the fake populists and migrant-baiters of the far right will fill the gap.

This moment, ten years on from the crash, can be ours to forge a new economic consensus to replace the broken neoliberal model, which has failed working class people, fuelled inequality and insecurity, and sucked wealth away from the majority to an elite few at the top.

 

Obviously Corbyn is a fool and the correct form of political action is to squabble online for a decade waiting for a referendum that isn't coming.

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I'm giving him 5 points for being the first person in at least three years to understand what "elite" actually means.

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9 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Corbyn addressing the Dutch Labour Party

 

 

Obviously Corbyn is a fool and the correct form of political action is to squabble online for a decade waiting for a referendum that isn't coming.

:lol:

  Corbyn sounds like we are on the threshold of a pan-European socialist wave.

Sadly the only parties making headway in Europe at the moment are xenophobic, right wing populists.

As I said in an earlier post, he has not lost his backbencher mentality.  It’s an affront to our system of democracy that the choice is between him and May.

 

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7 hours ago, Detournement said:

They have a position. Customs union and regulatory allignment. Which is where the government is about to end up after 18 months of bluster. Labour doesn't want to join the EEA or have a second vote. They were in favour of a meaningful vote in parliament. Those are positions.

There are very legitimate reasons for left wingers to be against EU membership.

 

 

Actually they don't even agree on any of that champ.  They are appeasing racists in northern England.

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Corbyn’s correct in that mainstream liberalism has failed to address the economic grievances of their electorates and that it’s either up to the left to offer people an economic vision of the future that includes the vulnerable in society, or abandon them to the far-right who will prioritise a narrow few. I’m not certain that Corbyn is the best person to put this into practice given he’s recently made a big deal out of hiring more border guards.

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Has H_B/ScotSquid/TartanWarrior reinvented himself as a Corbynista? :lol:

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Has H_B/ScotSquid/TartanWarrior reinvented himself as a Corbynista? 
Hey don't take the piss. We don't want to miss out on any more of the failed solicitor's political acumen here

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I’m not sure if you’re being serious or not.

Brexit will have a negative impact on the economy regardless of who is in power, if it’s a hard Brexit you can replace ‘negative’ with ‘disasterous’.

That in turn will have an impact upon the services that any future government can provide, regardless of the colour of that government.  A diminishing tax base together with rising unemployment is not good news.

Corbyn’s ‘jobs friendly Brexit’ line is as meaningless and pitiful as anything the Tories have come up with.  Thankfully it looks like his own supporters in Momentum and Unite are beginning to apply pressure.

 

 

Staying in the EU would make it much more difficult to renationalise industries, and Corbyn has rightly made that a major part of his plan.

 

Don't get me wrong, I voted remain because the EU is a far better option than a Tory led Westminster - but it's far from an ideal form of governance if you believe in socialism.

 

The Brexit process is a shambles but if you think the EU is sitting laughing at the prospect of a 'no deal' then you're being very naive. There will be an awful lot of unintended consequences from this kind of political upheaval - and out of that there is the possibility of a genuinely left wing alternative.

 

 

 

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You’ve literally described him playing party political games and then given him credit for not playing the ‘Westminster’ game. 

Him not ‘sticking his neck out’ over Brexit doesn’t sound like a  principaled anti Westminster guy to me. 

Eta. You’re correct May isn’t being let off the hook over Brexit but that’s got sweet f**k all to do with Corbyn. 

This is a good post, and you're right. Granny d says he can't compromise but his brexit position is exactly that. He's a politician, and that involves a balance between principles and political expediency. He's undoubtedly a principled leader but you're right he's also playing a longer game with this issue.

 

My point about PMQs is that I think it's a red herring. Folk interested in politics follow it but I don't think it changes many minds.

 

In my view, folk that couldn't give a f**k about politics pay no attention at all to it. He's been attacking her on brexit for weeks and she just (sensibly) turns it back on him. Like I said, it's a charade.

 

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5 hours ago, Detournement said:

Corbyn addressing the Dutch Labour Party

 

 

Obviously Corbyn is a fool and the correct form of political action is to squabble online for a decade waiting for a referendum that isn't coming.

The Scottish government have a mandate for a referendum in this parliament.  Do labour have a mandate to govern?

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Staying in the EU would make it much more difficult to renationalise industries, and Corbyn has rightly made that a major part of his plan.  

Don't get me wrong, I voted remain because the EU is a far better option than a Tory led Westminster - but it's far from an ideal form of governance if you believe in socialism.

 

The Brexit process is a shambles but if you think the EU is sitting laughing at the prospect of a 'no deal' then you're being very naive. There will be an awful lot of unintended consequences from this kind of political upheaval - and out of that there is the possibility of a genuinely left wing alternative.

 

 

 

Which industries specifically?

 

The support from Brexit on the left is a typical example of a naive nature that's throttled the Labour party for the last few years. It's the gap to maybe having this nice idea but being batshit crazy to not understand that implementation of their concepts are never going to be realised and the reality will be far worse.

 

People will be poorer because of what happened in 2016 and somewhere between 30-40% of Labour supporters chose this option. They were fighting with a lot of difficult external factors (I.e. how the press behaved) but the intellectual rigour of their debate is one of the worst moments in their history. I understand why the Corbyn movement occurred but it's the most self destructive exercise I can remember in recent years.

 

I think PR is badly needed in the UK more than ever. Let the parties fragment and start again.

 

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Which industries specifically? 
The support from Brexit on the left is a typical example of a naive nature that's throttled the Labour party for the last few years. It's the gap to maybe having this nice idea but being batshit crazy to not understand that implementation of their concepts are never going to be realised and the reality will be far worse.
 
People will be poorer because of what happened in 2016 and somewhere between 30-40% of Labour supporters chose this option. They were fighting with a lot of difficult external factors (I.e. how the press behaved) but the intellectual rigour of their debate is one of the worst moments in their history. I understand why the Corbyn movement occurred but it's the most self destructive exercise I can remember in recent years.
 
I think PR is badly needed in the UK more than ever. Let the parties fragment and start again.
 
So do you think the new labour stuff was working fairly well?

(I absolutely agree with your last statement, but there really is no chance of that)

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So do you think the new labour stuff was working fairly well?

(I absolutely agree with your last statement, but there really is no chance of that)
Not at all. The 'New Labour' period allowed a lot of issues to fester in the membership (being quite dictatorial) and the public as a whole (they played the national card when it suited them and played to Murdoch's tune.

On the other hand, they were an organised and well oiled machine that got into power and did drive a lot of positive change that was substantial reform at the time. The party have to at least recognise that success and surely try to define themselves somewhere between that era and a backroom team when are more in tune with Infowars than Reuters.

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1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

This is a good post, and you're right. Granny d says he can't compromise but his brexit position is exactly that. He's a politician, and that involves a balance between principles and political expediency. He's undoubtedly a principled leader but you're right he's also playing a longer game with this issue.

 

My point about PMQs is that I think it's a red herring. Folk interested in politics follow it but I don't think it changes many minds.

 

In my view, folk that couldn't give a f**k about politics pay no attention at all to it. He's been attacking her on brexit for weeks and she just (sensibly) turns it back on him. Like I said, it's a charade.

 

Oh don’t get me wrong PMQ’s is simply theatre to give the media gallery headlines. If we’re being honest we all like a bit of entertainment at times as well,  don’t we?

Corbyns poor performance (imo) in PMQ’s isn’t my bug bear with him, although it does from time to time highlight his ineptitude. 

Edited by Londonwell

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Plenty of the most potent criticisms made towards Labour are hangovers from the New Labour era and the claim that the backroom team “are more in tune with Infowars than Reuters” is just bizarre.

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