What is the point of Labour ?

[Peppino Impastato]

40 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Everyone else was discussing Brexit. I'd drop the 'champ' schtick, it does nothing for you.

Your second sentence is my exact point. It's not, unless you make it so. That makes you an absolute obsessive.
 

We were discussing Scottish independence too champ.  And I'm afraid it is linked to everything, there's no issue independence isn't intrinsically linked to as it gives us the power to make all political decisions affecting ourselves.  I know you'd like this not to be the case but it is.

[Peppino Impastato]

25 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Basically if we lose again then we’re fucked, Brexit, Rees-Mogg PM, private NHS type affair so I understand the guys urgency and focus on the indy issue. I dont agree with Pep on a lot of things and cringe at a lot of his posts but he’s kinda right to say that the biggest issue at present is Indy.

 

If i was a pro indy politician and it was a no i’d just resign and let the fuckwits destroy the country because that’s what the people would deserve.

 

If people can’t see that the Tories will make everyone poorer, destroy workers conditions/pay and shift the UK even further to the right then its a sad day, sadly I think we will lose another ref and there really is no viable alternative to hard brexit tory right wing extremism.

 

Careerist Labour politicians so desperate to cling onto the union and their profile ignoring the founding principles of the actual party make a mockery of politics in this country. Basically we are at a junction, its Indy and the chance to shape Scotlands place in the world or Brexit, right wing Tory rule for the foreseeable, becoming isolationist, indebted further to Trump et al and with the things we hold dearest like the NHS eroded to satisfy the rich tory donors.

Excellent post.  I think if we have another referendum and lose the SNP should resign en masse the following morning and withdraw from politics.  Let people get what they voted for and allow fucking idiots like miles Briggs or James Kelly run/ruin the country, Jamie fucking Greene clowns like that, then people can see how fkn stupid they are instead of the SNP protecting them.

[Peppino Impastato]

There is literally not one single issue that isn't linked to independence right now and that's the way it will be till it's resolved

Immigration - independence

Growing the economy - independence

EU membership - independence

Workers rights - independence

Welfare - independence

Redistribution of wealth - independence

 

 

Nobody could name one issue that isn't defined by independence. Obviously pandrilla wishes this wasn't the case as does Richard Leonard but it is.

[Detournement]

2 hours ago, Peppino Impastato said:

Ties between workers in Liverpool and Glasgow have nothing to do with the UK. Your shite works both ways champ.

Workers in Glasgow and Liverpool pay into the same taxation system to fund public services.

[Peppino Impastato]

Just now, Detournement said:

Workers in Glasgow and Liverpool pay into the same taxation system to fund public services.

Not for long.

[NotThePars]

Basically if we lose again then we’re fucked, Brexit, Rees-Mogg PM, private NHS type affair so I understand the guys urgency and focus on the indy issue. I dont agree with Pep on a lot of things and cringe at a lot of his posts but he’s kinda right to say that the biggest issue at present is Indy.
 
If i was a pro indy politician and it was a no i’d just resign and let the fuckwits destroy the country because that’s what the people would deserve.
 
If people can’t see that the Tories will make everyone poorer, destroy workers conditions/pay and shift the UK even further to the right then its a sad day, sadly I think we will lose another ref and there really is no viable alternative to hard brexit tory right wing extremism.
 
Careerist Labour politicians so desperate to cling onto the union and their profile ignoring the founding principles of the actual party make a mockery of politics in this country. Basically we are at a junction, its Indy and the chance to shape Scotlands place in the world or Brexit, right wing Tory rule for the foreseeable, becoming isolationist, indebted further to Trump et al and with the things we hold dearest like the NHS eroded to satisfy the rich tory donors.

Much of those people who you think deserve to have the Tories f**k them over will be lifelong anti-Tories and whole-hearted independence supporters. I alway had the impression that the Yes vote was largely backed by the lower classes who are the least able to avoid or resist Tory austerity. Why should they be punished for their supposed betters condemning them to live in misery?

[Peppino Impastato]

4 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

Much of those people who you think deserve to have the Tories f**k them over will be lifelong anti-Tories and whole-hearted independence supporters. I alway had the impression that the Yes vote was largely backed by the lower classes who are the least able to avoid or resist Tory austerity. Why should they be punished for their supposed betters condemning them to live in misery?

 

You can't divide the electorate.  If Scotland voted no again Scotland should get what it voted for.  People here mostly have no idea how bad things are in the UK as the SNP are incredibly competent and protect them.  Nobody is saying punish anybody just let people have what they vote for.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Much of those people who you think deserve to have the Tories f**k them over will be lifelong anti-Tories and whole-hearted independence supporters. I alway had the impression that the Yes vote was largely backed by the lower classes who are the least able to avoid or resist Tory austerity. Why should they be punished for their supposed betters condemning them to live in misery?

If people vote no again despite the lies last time, the madness of brexit and the spectre of a far right Tory party craving an american trade deal that impacts our work conditions, food safety and NHS then yes they truly do deserve all they get. The fact that the labour party continues to be ineffective in opposition and abstaining on key votes shows they have no desire to stop these things happening. That we’ve to put our trust in Corbyn and Kate Hoey is utter lunacy and perhaps living under the shadow of hard brexit and all that brings will be enough to shift opinion, but for many others ensuring they get to stick on a sash and bang a drum would make that acceptable, for others its passports and for the rest its getting rid of Johnny Foreigner.
If we vote no again then it really is beyond saving.

[NotThePars]

If people vote no again despite the lies last time, the madness of brexit and the spectre of a far right Tory party craving an american trade deal that impacts our work conditions, food safety and NHS then yes they truly do deserve all they get. The fact that the labour party continues to be ineffective in opposition and abstaining on key votes shows they have no desire to stop these things happening. That we’ve to put our trust in Corbyn and Kate Hoey is utter lunacy and perhaps living under the shadow of hard brexit and all that brings will be enough to shift opinion, but for many others ensuring they get to stick on a sash and bang a drum would make that acceptable, for others its passports and for the rest its getting rid of Johnny Foreigner.
If we vote no again then it really is beyond saving.

But you’re treating the entire electorate as a monolithic bloc that vote the same way. If 49% primarily poorer voters vote Yes the next time should they be left to the mercy of the ghouls in the Conservative Party because the more privileged in society decide they’re quite alright after all?

[Peppino Impastato]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

 

But you’re treating the entire electorate as a monolithic bloc that vote the same way. If 49% primarily poorer voters vote Yes the next time should they be left to the mercy of the ghouls in the Conservative Party because the more privileged in society decide they’re quite alright after all?

 

That's democracy champ.  Who gets the most votes wins.  You're so typical labour, just spouting utter shite, twisting facts and moving goalposts all the time cause you just can't accept things aren't how you'd like them to be. 

The SNP were formed to pursue Scottish independence.  Maybe they're fed up of years and years of lies and smears and if it's no in indyref two they'd like to spend time with their families and do something else with their lives.  Who could blame them.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

But you’re treating the entire electorate as a monolithic bloc that vote the same way. If 49% primarily poorer voters vote Yes the next time should they be left to the mercy of the ghouls in the Conservative Party because the more privileged in society decide they’re quite alright after all?

Well if you operate on a majority democratic system thats how it works surely? I know if my entire lifes work was rejected by the public twice in favour of lies and right wing politics i’d probably jack it in and look to do something else, if the public is too stupid to realise it then they deserve what they get basically. Its patently clear that Independence is the best way forward for Scotland, if it gets rejected at a time where the case could never be stronger then whats the point? Labour have made it clear in both recent guises that they hold Scotland in complete contempt, New Labour taking Scotland into wars it didnt support, fucking up the financial sector, plunging schools into huge pfi debts and current Labour under Corbyn which abstains on votes which will hurt Scotland, steps aside for far right brexit, a leader who clearly has no interest in Scotland (see his insight into our legal system etc).
The Lib Dems are even worse, so really what is the alternative to indy?

[NotThePars]

It’s cool that Pep gets frothing at the mouth at the notion that it’s maybe not good to tell people that they should resign themselves to living in permanent misery if one vote doesn’t go their way.

[Peppino Impastato]

3 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Well if you operate on a majority democratic system thats how it works surely? I know if my entire lifes work was rejected by the public twice in favour of lies and right wing politics i’d probably jack it in and look to do something else, if the public is too stupid to realise it then they deserve what they get basically. Its patently clear that Independence is the best way forward for Scotland, if it gets rejected at a time where the case could never be stronger then whats the point? Labour have made it clear in both recent guises that they hold Scotland in complete contempt, New Labour taking Scotland into wars it didnt support, fucking up the financial sector, plunging schools into huge pfi debts and current Labour under Corbyn which abstains on votes which will hurt Scotland, steps aside for far right brexit, a leader who clearly has no interest in Scotland (see his insight into our legal system etc).
The Lib Dems are even worse, so really what is the alternative to indy?

Great post.  It's independence or fk it, who cares we're going to get reamed anyway either lube up or leave.

[Peppino Impastato]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

It’s cool that Pep gets frothing at the mouth at the notion that it’s maybe not good to tell people that they should resign themselves to living in permanent misery if one vote doesn’t go their way.

Two.  It's not permanent misery it's living in a state that votes Tory 70% of the time.  So, since you're so smart, guess what you're going to get if you want to stay in the UK, for 70% of the rest of your life.  

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

It’s cool that Pep gets frothing at the mouth at the notion that it’s maybe not good to tell people that they should resign themselves to living in permanent misery if one vote doesn’t go their way.

Where do you see the alternative coming from?
I think next indy ref the campaign should be a positive one focusing on the benefits and Scotlands ability to be a strong member of the international community. However it would be entirely negligent to not point out the lies of the last campaign, surely you can see that?

[NotThePars]

Where do you see the alternative coming from?
I think next indy ref the campaign should be a positive one focusing on the benefits and Scotlands ability to be a strong member of the international community. However it would be entirely negligent to not point out the lies of the last campaign, surely you can see that?

The only thing I’ve taken issue with is saying people should resign themselves from politics or leave the country if independence doesn’t happen because that’s not something, a lot of Yes voters included, can afford to do. Nothing else you’ve said I disagree with.

[Granny Danger]

John Woodcock resining from Labour.  One right-wing shitebag down, many more to go.

 

[Peppino Impastato]

4 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

The only thing I’ve taken issue with is saying people should resign themselves from politics or leave the country if independence doesn’t happen because that’s not something, a lot of Yes voters included, can afford to do. Nothing else you’ve said I disagree with.

 

A party that's raison detre is Scottish independence probably should resign from politics if Scottish independence is rejected a second time.  But why do you care, you're a big labour man, they'll look after us eh, don't see why you'd have a problem with that.  Free reign for James Kelly to be finance minister, that would go well eh?  It's not like he's a slavering idiot, I'd gladly give him control of the nation's finances.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

8 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

John Woodcock resining from Labour.  One right-wing shitebag down, many more to go.

 

Resignation letter here if anyone's interested. Notice how he gives himself a massive pat on the back for Trident. 

Nuclear missiles a few short miles from Scotland's largest population center. Hooray!!!

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

The only thing I’ve taken issue with is saying people should resign themselves from politics or leave the country if independence doesn’t happen because that’s not something, a lot of Yes voters included, can afford to do. Nothing else you’ve said I disagree with.

But why should they work for the UK when they dont believe in it?

I genuinely would like to see those areas which are the staunchest pro brexit areas hit the hardest by the economic impact, but they won’t be. Why should I strive as a pro indy supporter to try and make things better post second no vote for people who don’t have a clue and voted for a xenophobic, economically disastrous brexit? I think there has to come a time when we say f**k it the bad guys have won and that would be my reaction if a second indy ref were to fail. Holding out hope for 1 out of every 4 governments to be labour (and then hope that its not a right wing labour or moronic Corbyn led labour) doesnt really seem like much of a consolation prize.