What is the point of Labour ?

[Granny Danger]

59 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Of course I do. 

But all political parties make choices in government that means they don't always deliver what they say they will. I won't go in about the SNP's ones, but let's not deny that they exist. And not all are to do with lack of cash forthcoming from the UK. 

I’d imagine that there must be some non-financial commitments that the SNP government has made and not followed through on.  Personally I’m struggling to think of anything of importance.

That said until we have complete financial autonomy it is disingenuous to make criticism of the financially related ones.

[scottsdad]

9 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’d imagine that there must be some non-financial commitments that the SNP government has made and not followed through on.  Personally I’m struggling to think of anything of importance.

That said until we have complete financial autonomy it is disingenuous to make criticism of the financially related ones.

Take one example - replacing council tax with a local income tax. This would generate money, was promised in 2007 and never happened. 

[scottsdad]

ROSS CLARK: Has anyone caused as much damage to the British economy as Ed Miliband?

One or two names spring to mind...

Spoiler

 

[Granny Danger]

21 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Take one example - replacing council tax with a local income tax. This would generate money, was promised in 2007 and never happened. 

Wiki, but I think still accurate:

After the 2007 election, the SNP-run Scottish Government planned to bring forward legislation to replace Council Tax with a local income tax as part of the funding for Scottish local authorities.^[7] A major setback took place when the UK government said it would withhold almost £400 million in Council Tax Benefit if the Scottish government implemented the proposals.^[8][9]Controversially, the UK government said it would, however, release the funds for a tax scheme designed by Scottish Labour.^[10]

[Wee Bully]

3 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Take one example - replacing council tax with a local income tax. This would generate money, was promised in 2007 and never happened. 

It was part of the 2007 manifesto, and couldn’t be delivered, as it was a minority government and they couldn’t get support for it.  Was it part of any of the manifestos from 2011 onwards?

[scottsdad]

4 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

I’d imagine that there must be some non-financial commitments that the SNP government has made and not followed through on.  Personally I’m struggling to think of anything of importance.

That said until we have complete financial autonomy it is disingenuous to make criticism of the financially related ones.

This has played in my mind since you posted it. 

You could take this argument to an extreme - why bother having targets set by the Scottish Government in areas such as poverty levels and climate change if they don't have the ability to deliver them? Taking it to an extreme, what is the point of having a Scottish Government of they cannot make any meaningful change?

I get your point - that independence answers these questions. On that I agree. But the argument that the SNP has delivered on everything, except any areas requiring money, could cut both ways. 

[Bad Wolf]

19 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

This has played in my mind since you posted it. 

You could take this argument to an extreme - why bother having targets set by the Scottish Government in areas such as poverty levels and climate change if they don't have the ability to deliver them? Taking it to an extreme, what is the point of having a Scottish Government of they cannot make any meaningful change?

I get your point - that independence answers these questions. On that I agree. But the argument that the SNP has delivered on everything, except any areas requiring money, could cut both ways. 

Very few, if any, posters here (or anywhere else for that matter) are claiming that the SNP have delivered on absolutely everything. The fact that they win majorities in an electoral system designed not to provide majority governments (which I'm completely onboard with myself) suggests that they are delivering enough, certainly more than any of the opposition parties could achieve. A cynical observer might cynically observe that it wasn't really intended by it's initial beneficiaries to deliver any real change; but instead to help deliver Labour majorities in Westminster, where the real power ought to remain (in their eyes, not mine). 

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, scottsdad said:

This has played in my mind since you posted it. 

You could take this argument to an extreme - why bother having targets set by the Scottish Government in areas such as poverty levels and climate change if they don't have the ability to deliver them? Taking it to an extreme, what is the point of having a Scottish Government of they cannot make any meaningful change?

I get your point - that independence answers these questions. On that I agree. But the argument that the SNP has delivered on everything, except any areas requiring money, could cut both ways. 

Yeah, some folk do that in place of realpolitik arguments.

As an aside, and as many others have said, I cannot think of a single SNP supporter on here who is slavishly uncritical of them but I’d reiterate the following two points.

Firstly, to criticise spending/budgetary decisions of the Scottish government without recognising the tax raising restrictions is totally disingenuous.  Having some leeway over personal income tax is simply insufficient.

Secondly, claiming to want Scottish Independence without being willing to vote for either the Greens or the SNP is also disingenuous.  It’s like saying that you really want to win the lottery but that you won’t buy a ticket.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Of course I do. 
But all political parties make choices in government that means they don't always deliver what they say they will. I won't go in about the SNP's ones, but let's not deny that they exist. And not all are to do with lack of cash forthcoming from the UK. 

You missed the point.

I'm talking about the Labour leadership historically binning policies because they didn't like them.

[Clown Job]

Imagine wanting to jail someone for a non violent protest 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

1 hour ago, Clown Job said:

Imagine wanting to jail someone for a non violent protest 

Jesus wept 

[renton]

19 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Take one example - replacing council tax with a local income tax. This would generate money, was promised in 2007 and never happened. 

It was a shite idea and was actually a good idea it was shelved.

Council tax needs replaced, but not by another top up hitting income.

[williemillersmoustache]

9 hours ago, Clown Job said:

Imagine wanting to jail someone for a non violent protest 

If there's one thing that the massively overcrowded under-resourced  prison service needs now it's more people given custodial sentences for the throwing of soup.  

[Granny Danger]

10 hours ago, Clown Job said:

Imagine wanting to jail someone for a non violent protest 

That could easily be a Conservative MP speaking.

[Salt n Vinegar]

2 hours ago, renton said:

It was a shite idea and was actually a good idea it was shelved.

Council tax needs replaced, but not by another top up hitting income.

If anyone can find a widely-acceptable alternative to the Council Tax, they should receive the thanks of a grateful nation and free tattie scones for life. 

[renton]

25 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

If anyone can find a widely-acceptable alternative to the Council Tax, they should receive the thanks of a grateful nation and free tattie scones for life. 

Indeed. 

There is no way to significantly reform the system without creating new winners and losers, therefore no politically palatable way of enacting it.

 

[Frank Quitely]

4 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

That could easily be a Conservative MP speaking.

There can no longer be any doubt as to which voting bloc Starmer is targeting, and it certainly isn't former Labour voters resident in Scotland.  

[Granny Danger]

3 hours ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

If anyone can find a widely-acceptable alternative to the Council Tax, they should receive the thanks of a grateful nation and free tattie scones for life. 

You know how to motivate…

[Dunfermline Don]

3 hours ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

If anyone can find a widely-acceptable alternative to the Council Tax, they should receive the thanks of a grateful nation and free tattie scones for life. 

I am sure we could try a poll tax again!

It didn’t cause many problems the last time it was introduced did it?

Maybe they could implement it in Wales a year before the rest of the UK this time!

[Granny Danger]

55 minutes ago, Frank Quitely said:

There can no longer be any doubt as to which voting bloc Starmer is targeting, and it certainly isn't former Labour voters resident in Scotland.  

It’s possible that in Scotland there will be a switch from disaffected Tories to Labour at the next GE, don’t see a SNP to Labour swing though.