What is the point of Labour ?

[Guest Jedi]

Better an emoji (and I was actually giving you credit for one disagreeable labour move incidently)                  than the puddle drinking imbecile chat (passing for debate) as responses...no?

[Antlion]

Just now, Brother Blades said:

Sorry, you can’t get away with this, you claimed that other than flag shagging “make Brexit work” Labour had no right wing policies, you’ve been proved wrong & no amount of emojis will disguise that. 

It’s also not like “making Brexit work” can just be hand-waved away as a “well, I don’t really agree with that but…” or even “well, he doesn’t really mean it” (as though that makes him look good!). It’s the biggest right-wing led, disaster-capitalist shitshow that has infected the UK in my lifetime. And Starmer and Labour are pathetically prostituting themselves to it for the sake of winning newly-minted, Johnson-worshipping Tory voters - because that’s easier than making a principled argument against the appalling decision England and Wales foisted on us all, and actually convincing people that they ought to reverse it.

[Brother Blades]

2 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Better an emoji (and I was actually giving you credit for one disagreeable labour move incidently)                  than the puddle drinking imbecile chat (passing for debate) as responses...no?

I’ve not insulted you once, not sure why you’d bring this up with me? Very strange. 

[Brother Blades]

I’m off to bed, but, I guarantee that the current Labour leaders namesake would be twirling in his grave now, if not scrabbling through the soil to strangle the current incumbent. 
Hardie would be shocked, it was called the Labour Party for a reason, long forgotten by the Westminster elite, it makes me sad. 
it’s an insult to the party name, it’s origins & it’s whole reason for being, that Keith is willing to go right wing just for power, f**k him, f**k the Labour Party & by f**k, we need independence as soon as possible. 

[Big Fifer]

One of the reasons people see independence= SNP is because those at the top of the SNP would likely be part of any negotiations were we to vote for independence, which is a little bit scary considering the quality within the party.

Similarly, this idea that as soon as we're independent the SNP will disband and we'll be presented with a host of new parties in our new glorious democracy seems a bit fanciful to me.

[williemillersmoustache]

1 hour ago, Big Fifer said:

One of the reasons people see independence= SNP is because those at the top of the SNP would likely be part of any negotiations were we to vote for independence, which is a little bit scary considering the quality within the party.

Similarly, this idea that as soon as we're independent the SNP will disband and we'll be presented with a host of new parties in our new glorious democracy seems a bit fanciful to me.

Similarly Independence is not about making Nicola MegaIndyQueenForLife.

There is simply zero Scottish political talent outside of the SNP and Greens, and what would you rather? Alister Jack or Ian Murray representing the party interests of whichever flavour of English Nationalism is holding the regal jiggly stick in negotiations with nobody, or folk we actually elect representing us negotiating a far far better and far far more accountable way for us to be governed?

 

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, Big Fifer said:

One of the reasons people see independence= SNP is because those at the top of the SNP would likely be part of any negotiations were we to vote for independence, which is a little bit scary considering the quality within the party.

Similarly, this idea that as soon as we're independent the SNP will disband and we'll be presented with a host of new parties in our new glorious democracy seems a bit fanciful to me.

I totally disagree.  I was heavily involved in politics for about 20 years, there are always huge tensions within political parties even when they are (nominally) on the same side politically.  I very much doubt if that has changed in the 27 years since I gave up active politics.

In the SNP, there will be significant policy differences outwith the Independence issue.  At the moment the lid is kept on in pursuit of a common goal but that will change very quickly once that common goal has been achieved.

Throw into the mix personal ambition and there’s no way the existing party structure will not fragment.  I only hope that it’s in a relatively amicable manner.

I also hope/think that those on the centre left will garner the biggest support amongst the membership and the wider electorate.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

'puddle drinking imbecile',(in the extreme no less) 'moron' .....all nice epithets for not clapping the SNP through.
Don't know if someone who was the Director of Public Prosecutions is exactly a nonentity...still, time will tell.

Nice try.

I left the SNP last year.

I am under no illusion that they are a means to an end.

I was also a member of the Labour Party some 28 years ago - I knew (and still know) many of the current crop of Labour MPs when they were active in student politics. They are as principleless now as they were then.

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, Big Fifer said:

One of the reasons people see independence= SNP is because those at the top of the SNP would likely be part of any negotiations were we to vote for independence, which is a little bit scary considering the quality within the party.

Similarly, this idea that as soon as we're independent the SNP will disband and we'll be presented with a host of new parties in our new glorious democracy seems a bit fanciful to me.

And continued dependence looks more than a little bit scary given we’ve had decades of seeing exactly what it means. Imagining that a glorious and happy future without the Tories destroying Scotland - and the UK - with Brexit unshackling them, seems a bit fanciful to me.

[GiGi]

The SNP as they've become bigger and more successful are now riddled with the same breed of careerists and wrong'uns as both brands of Tory tbh. In lesser numbers even relatively, I think, but still there.

They remain the means to the objective of independence so my vote still defaults there. It helps that they do support left leaning policies and have capable enough leadership (Swinney is a Truss-grade speaker but still). 

Labour had a good manifesto under Corbyn but England are too right wing to vote for that, and the current Labour party are too. The Scottish Labour MSPs seem to be aligning themselves more closely with their big team than ever and seem more focused on preserving the union, be it in the interest of their own constituents or not. Working with the Tories to beat the SNP should never be a consideration for a Labour representative but that's what we have in Scotland today, and that's not good enough. People will remember that come election time. 

[scottsdad]

12 hours ago, Antlion said:

I don’t think Labour are indistinguishable from the current crop of governing Tories. But in the last decade they’ve been very much Diet Tory.

[Antlion]

12 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Ah, Corbyn - a man who might have truly rebranded the Labour Party if it weren’t for the Labour Party.

[Granny Danger]

24 minutes ago, GiGi said:

The SNP as they've become bigger and more successful are now riddled with the same breed of careerists and wrong'uns as both brands of Tory tbh. In lesser numbers even relatively, I think, but still there.

They remain the means to the objective of independence so my vote still defaults there. It helps that they do support left leaning policies and have capable enough leadership (Swinney is a Truss-grade speaker but still). 

Labour had a good manifesto under Corbyn but England are too right wing to vote for that, and the current Labour party are too. The Scottish Labour MSPs seem to be aligning themselves more closely with their big team than ever and seem more focused on preserving the union, be it in the interest of their own constituents or not. Working with the Tories to beat the SNP should never be a consideration for a Labour representative but that's what we have in Scotland today, and that's not good enough. People will remember that come election time. 

As any sustainable political party becomes more successful it will attract careerists of the type you refer to and as you say the SNP are not immune from this.  However as has been discussed elsewhere the SNP is no more than a vehicle to Independence then we can start again.

Scotland has rejected Tory values for half a century and that gives me hope that whatever emerges will be more progressive and accountable, careerists not withstanding.

[MacDuffman]

My worry would be that after Independance SNP breaks into 2 or 3 new Parties along with Alba. This then spreads the vote across more Parties & the Tories get in.

[Stellaboz]

After Indy, if Scotland wants a right wing party rule then that's what it should get. 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

16 minutes ago, MacDuffman said:

My worry would be that after Independance SNP breaks into 2 or 3 new Parties along with Alba. This then spreads the vote across more Parties & the Tories get in.

I doubt that's an issue tbh. It'll just mean government by coalition rather than the current scenario of the SNP singularly botch-slapping the other unionist parties ad infinitum. 

[Guest Jedi]

I know that we are not meant to have 'debate', rather insults on the level of intelligence of anyone making any kind of case for the (right-wing) Labour party, but, interesting to see some acknowledgement that the SNP would lead Independence negotiations, as they are the Scottish govt.

One thing I will give them credit for is that they have been honest in the their view and vision of Independence, and what they want it to be-in these negotiations.

A currency union with England, interest rates set by the B of E, a race to the bottom in securing private foreign capital investment in Scotland, paring spending on public services to a minimum in order to reach deficit targets, and a low tax, light regulation in order to please corporate interest. Also an admission that it could take 10 years to meet the criteria to join the EU, and up to 25 years to reach the levels of other small countries economic performance. (all of these were set out by Andrew Wilson in his interview with Andrew Neil, as well as various articles he has written since the publication of his report).

These then are the values which the SNP will use as their starting point with Westminster. As said they have been honest about it (at the same time closing down their own members attempts to get a Scottish currency up and running as soon as possible, and also ensuring that money is spent on public services).

You can say 'that's what we have had with Tory/Labour for the last 40 years, so what's the difference?', you can say, 'we can elect any government we want in an Independent Scotland' (true, although shifting the SNP from power will clearly take time).....but we can at least fly our own flegs, and get rid of the Union Jack (also true). Or indeed 'Starmer is a snake oil salesman who is totally untrustworthy, and doesn't have any principles, can't trust him'..........(reneging on the Scottish Energy Company and then shutting down debate on it, clearing the way for corporate interests to dominate the 'Green agenda', etc...all trustworthy though)

The GE should be interesting when the SNP continue to put forward this vision of Independence, and how they will negotiate it. 

Will 'other voices' emerge from within the SNP to put a more palatable vision of Independence on the table, prior to negotiations? Can't see it as it all about those at the top of the party retaining power.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Jedi

[Granny Danger]

4 hours ago, MacDuffman said:

My worry would be that after Independance SNP breaks into 2 or 3 new Parties along with Alba. This then spreads the vote across more Parties & the Tories get in.

It’s likely that any post Independence government will be some sort of coalition under a form of PR voting.  I cannot see anyone wanting to go into coalition with the Tories.

[jakedee]

It’s likely that any post Independence government will be some sort of coalition under a form of PR voting.  I cannot see anyone wanting to go into coalition with the Tories.

If they continue on their current trajectory then yes I agree. After independence even the Tory's may change direction and become acceptable to some.
They'd have to drop the toxic name though.

[Clown Job]

10 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

It’s likely that any post Independence government will be some sort of coalition under a form of PR voting.  I cannot see anyone wanting to go into coalition with the Tories.

Surely at the very minimum they’d need to rebrand as they couldn’t be the Conservative and Unionist party anymore if they want to be taken seriously and not some fringe group in tears about not being British anymore