What is the point of Labour ?

[BFTD]

10 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

I can't see how a referendum asking "Should Scotland be an independent country: Yes/No", could be considered advisory.

f**k knows, but the Brexit one was.

Edit: I think it depends on whether or not the answer suits.

Edited July 8, 2022 by BFTD

[dirty dingus]

6 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

I was put on 4 different prescriptions when I was in hospital - 1/a blood thinner (because I was on antibiotics), 2/ beta blockers because they discovered an irregular heart rhthym (which I could have had all my life without it appearing to do me any harm), 3/ fluid tablet as I was lying in bed most of the day, and my ankles and fingers were swelling up and 4/ folic acid tablets as I was low on iron.

8 months later I'm still on all of these, despite no longer being on antibiotics and not lying in bed all day. My last blood tests showed my folic acid as "normal".

I am on statins because my cholesterol was high about 5 years ago, never had it checked since then and basically prescribed as I done a full service after a 3 month Asian bender. Also got a BP tablet which didn't change my  BP one bit and they gave me another one but still have a script for the useless one. Think happy prescribing means they cover their arses and also that used to just giving free scripts out to the shite hawks that hang about the health centres.

[Left Back]

25 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

2 hours ago, Detournement said:

My idea of left is putting the vast majority of the population who are working class ahead of the interests of capitalists. 
The Scottish Government have limited powers but we are now at a point where there is a choice to be made about free university education for the children of the wealthy and free prescriptions for wealthy pensioners vs vital services for vulnerable people and food and heat for people in poverty. The SNP so far have chosen to prioritise the interests of their electorate over the most in need. That is not a left position.
And no doubt someone is already getting set up to bang on about the costs of means testing. That argument might have stood up a decade ago but in 2022 with the amount of data the government holds on us all it's utter pish wheeled out to close down uncomfortable arguments.

Data can only be used for the purpose it was gathered for. The SG do not have access to any data that would permit means testing on that scale. The one and only reason any benefits are universal is still the sheer cost of means testing. It's a total non starter.

If it was lawfully used for means testing your point becomes moot.

[Detournement]

26 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

2 hours ago, Detournement said:

 

Data can only be used for the purpose it was gathered for. The SG do not have access to any data that would permit means testing on that scale. The one and only reason any benefits are universal is still the sheer cost of means testing. It's a total non starter.

Bullshit.

How are they allocating fuel payments for low income people?

[D Angelo Barksdale]

I think the media shitehousing the old bill into a bullshit criminal investigation of the opposition party in order to assist the ruling party in the council elections tells us quite a bit about politics and democracy in this country.

[Zern]

55 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Probably, and hopefully the people in cherge have some idea about where we go once the UK's Supreme Court unsurprisingly decides that one of the UK's assets has no right to determine its own future. Despite the impatience from some folk, they're probably progressing at a rate that allows people to see that, yay or nay, Scotland's opinion on this issue is irrelevant - the UK considers that we're in until England decides otherwise.

But I do hope the final throw of the dice isn't, "one more chance, and we'll sign away whatever you like".

Edit: the UK, as we know, considers advisory referenda to be binding, so that shouldn't be a problem  

Thing is. Norther Ireland has that right to determine its future under the GFA, as a border poll is guaranteed and it concerns seceding from the UK without anyone outside NI having a vote. It's part of UK law.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Zern said:

Thing is. Norther Ireland has that right to determine its future under the GFA, as a border poll is guaranteed and it concerns seceding from the UK without anyone outside NI having a vote. It's part of UK law.

Only if the Westminster appointed Secretary of State to NI determines that “if at anytime it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the UK and form part of a united Ireland”. I think they would need a poll in Eire too to decide whether they wanted reunification, which isn't a given.

[Duries Air Freshener]

11 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Only if the Westminster appointed Secretary of State to NI determines that “if at anytime it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the UK and form part of a united Ireland”. I think they would need a poll in Eire too to decide whether they wanted reunification, which isn't a given.

Very true, Welshy.

And we’re nowhere near that happening.
 

 

[Zern]

35 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Only if the Westminster appointed Secretary of State to NI determines that “if at anytime it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the UK and form part of a united Ireland”. I think they would need a poll in Eire too to decide whether they wanted reunification, which isn't a given.

Not the point though. In law they can, with a border poll, rewrite the constitutional borders as part of their ability to determine their future. In or out of the UK. Parallels with the Scottish situation are abundant.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

LOL. I trust the Express and Heil now have the Durham Police pegged as Commie Lefties or somesuch. 

You should see some of the Tweets on the Heil's feed - they are utterly convinced that the Police are a tool of the left.

Fucking morons.

[BFTD]

2 hours ago, Zern said:

Thing is. Norther Ireland has that right to determine its future under the GFA, as a border poll is guaranteed and it concerns seceding from the UK without anyone outside NI having a vote. It's part of UK law.

Oh, let's not bring Northern Ireland into it. I'm pretty sure at least one poster on here isn't far from advocating direct action as it is.

[Zern]

2 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Oh, let's not bring Northern Ireland into it. I'm pretty sure at least one poster on here isn't far from advocating direct action as it is.

Hard to leave them out, what with them being part of the UK and all. That's why this question is so messy. UK law has loads of ad hoc legislation with a distinct lack of consistency and uniformity being applied. GFA should have significant standing due to its international recognition, and should inform any decision by the Supreme Court on Scotland's future.

[BFTD]

1 minute ago, Zern said:

Hard to leave them out, what with them being part of the UK and all. That's why this question is so messy. UK law has loads of ad hoc legislation with a distinct lack of consistency and uniformity being applied. GFA should have significant standing due to its international recognition, and should inform any decision by the Supreme Court on Scotland's future.

I like your positivity. I'm going to cling to it like a lifebelt in a sea of inevitability.

Full judge doxxing on the front page of the Mail if you're correct. What a time to be alive.

[Zern]

16 minutes ago, BFTD said:

I like your positivity. I'm going to cling to it like a lifebelt in a sea of inevitability.

Full judge doxxing on the front page of the Mail if you're correct. What a time to be alive.

Well, it is a possibility. The Supreme Court and the Judges value their independence from a government they view as periodic. There is criticism for some of the proposed legislation and acts coming under the present one. Breaking international agreements and allowing ministers to overturn judgments rendered by a court are not welcome interference. It would naturally be concerned about conflicting with the UN resolution, Kosovo or other precedents and aware of scrutiny by the EU and US when it comes to the GFA and it's legal obligations.

Of course it could all go the other way. We won't be certain for a while yet. Although they've not immediately said we can't.

So we can, for now, proceed on the understanding that it's going ahead. The Bill is there, pending. The ballot paper looks good. The date is set.

Labour have little meaningful say on the matter right now.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

7 hours ago, Billy Jean King said:

10 hours ago, Detournement said:

My idea of left is putting the vast majority of the population who are working class ahead of the interests of capitalists. 
The Scottish Government have limited powers but we are now at a point where there is a choice to be made about free university education for the children of the wealthy and free prescriptions for wealthy pensioners vs vital services for vulnerable people and food and heat for people in poverty. The SNP so far have chosen to prioritise the interests of their electorate over the most in need. That is not a left position.
And no doubt someone is already getting set up to bang on about the costs of means testing. That argument might have stood up a decade ago but in 2022 with the amount of data the government holds on us all it's utter pish wheeled out to close down uncomfortable arguments.

Data can only be used for the purpose it was gathered for. The SG do not have access to any data that would permit means testing on that scale. The one and only reason any benefits are universal is still the sheer cost of means testing. It's a total non starter.

Not sure if its still the case but when i worked in student finance, every time you requested someones income for a tax year from hmrc - was called a KANA check iirc - it cost close to £10. Only usually had to do it once for the first academic year of a course but it also sometimes had to be done x2 for both the students sponsors. It adds up.

Academic years run different to the ordinary uk tax year too, so taking from that the big problem tends to be - if you're means testing support when are you forming the basis period for it? Current earnings or the last tax year?

Whatever you do you also end up with edge cases such as people who've recently had redundancy pay (technically it is taxable income that can get accounted for if you means test, its just not taxed up to the first £30k afaik). Also just encourages people to bullshit about who's actually in their household, that was common in student funding "oh did i say i remarried and you want to use my new wifes income to reduce how much money you can loan to my kid for their course? Whoopsie doopsie guess i uh made a mistake on the form im actually single lol"

Edited July 9, 2022 by Thistle_do_nicely

[Billy Jean King]

Bullshit.
How are they allocating fuel payments for low income people?

Via the benefits system. That's a totally different scenario than assessing the wealth of those who might not be entitled to something as you are advocating. Identifying those on Benefits is 100% possible, easy even but assessing wealth nigh on impossible without actually going through a mega costly application and vetting process unless you are advocating university fees for everyone not on state benefits ?

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, Billy Jean King said:

14 hours ago, Detournement said:

Bullshit.
How are they allocating fuel payments for low income people?

Via the benefits system. That's a totally different scenario than assessing the wealth of those who might not be entitled to something as you are advocating. Identifying those on Benefits is 100% possible, easy even but assessing wealth nigh on impossible without actually going through a mega costly application and vetting process unless you are advocating university fees for everyone not on state benefits ?

No I'd use HMRC data.

Pension credit, free school meals, working tax credits, fuel payments etc are all assessed no problem. 

The 'Means testing' argument is just a lie to hide behind to avoid hard decisions about redistributive decisions that the Scottish Government can easily make.

[Billy Jean King]

No I'd use HMRC data.
Pension credit, free school meals, working tax credits, fuel payments etc are all assessed no problem. 
The 'Means testing' argument is just a lie to hide behind to avoid hard decisions about redistributive decisions that the Scottish Government can easily make.

But we are talking about people not on benefits here. How do you means test them or I repeat are you advocating Uni fees for anyone not on state benefits ?

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, Billy Jean King said:

22 minutes ago, Detournement said:

No I'd use HMRC data.
Pension credit, free school meals, working tax credits, fuel payments etc are all assessed no problem. 
The 'Means testing' argument is just a lie to hide behind to avoid hard decisions about redistributive decisions that the Scottish Government can easily make.

But we are talking about people not on benefits here. How do you means test them or I repeat are you advocating Uni fees for anyone not on state benefits ?

What do you mean? Every economically active person in the country gets a annual statement from HMRC. Use that. 

[Billy Jean King]

What do you mean? Every economically active person in the country gets a annual statement from HMRC. Use that. 

How ? Do you think income and tax details are handed out to any authority on demand. You are talking horse shit here about something you clearly have zero knowledge of. Universities or whatever agency that would need to be set up to administer the means testing of (for example) uni fees would not have access to every member of the publics revenue and tax details. It's the very reason why means testing is so expensive. You are passing off your view / opinion as fact although not for the first time. Stick to the tin foil hat stuff !

ETA if you are talking about P60 you clearly are talking through your arse as it's not accepted to apply for means tested benefits. Take HB or CT reduction when in paid employment that requires actual proof of payment from an employer as the law stands just now. I repeat whether you like it or agree, means testing of people in paid employment is very expensive.