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What is the point of Labour ?


pawpar

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2 minutes ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

The feeling is more than mutual though.

🙂 I thought either you or WRK would be the one to take this up! 

Very much two-way - and they should all fight the Tories rather than each other.

 

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1 minute ago, scottsdad said:

At the time, many of the things he did were radical. The minimum wage. Writing off the debt of the world's poorest countries. Devolution to Scotland and Wales. Sure Start centres. Winter fuel payments. Scrapping Section 28. Introducing tax credits. Banning fox hunting. Banning handgun ownership. Free TV licenses for the over 75s. Doubled the overseas aid budget. 

That's off the top of my head. There are stats out there about how many children and pensioners were taken out of poverty under Blair (much of which has been reversed since 2010). How many extra nurses/teachers/policemen there were. How much more he spent on the NHS. 

Now - if he has put these all as his main pledges, your ordinary middle England voter would run a mile.

Some of these are incredibly charitable interpretations of what policies were actually implemented. "Writing off the debt of the world's poorest countries" in particular is a belter.

New Labour's policy record is mostly just as awful, and in lots of cases significantly worse, than the Tories record. I'm sure we've all seen the Jon Stone thread by now, but just in case some haven't:

 

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23 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

I get what you are saying, but Starmer has to stay some of that stuff to get elected. If he doesn't look tough on crime/patriotic etc then it's just 5 more years of the Tories.

Look at Blair's 5 pledges in 1997. 

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This is a mix of right wing stuff (crime, tax) and some very wishy-washy left wing stuff. This got him elected. Then he made big strides in reducing child poverty, getting Sure Start on the go, tax credits and the like.

Of course he shat the bed with Iraq and it all went wrong in the end, but he did manage to do some good for the poorest in society - by sticking the detail of that stuff in the manifesto and not really talking about it. Sounding centrist. If he sounded too left-wing he'd lose and we'll get more from the team that brought you austerity and vomit.

But (and I accept he would be better, if we had a French presidential system no question I'd vote for Keir in the run off) he either doesn't mean that stuff and is a liar and a fraud or he does and it is another 5 years of the Tories. 

I mean where's the wishy washy Keir stuff. *shrug emoji*

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59 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

🙂 I thought either you or WRK would be the one to take this up! 

Very much two-way - and they should all fight the Tories rather than each other.

 

Burgon is an idiot, but that is pathetically tame compared to even the staged shadow cabinet resignations, never mind sitting MPs like Ian Austin and Margaret Hodge repeatedly appearing in the media to tell people not to vote Labour because their party were the biggest bunch of racists since the nazis, before being rewarded with peerages from Boris Johnson.

It's not even on the same level.

 

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2 hours ago, G51 said:

Some of these are incredibly charitable interpretations of what policies were actually implemented. "Writing off the debt of the world's poorest countries" in particular is a belter.

New Labour's policy record is mostly just as awful, and in lots of cases significantly worse, than the Tories record. I'm sure we've all seen the Jon Stone thread by now, but just in case some haven't:

 

Should be compulsory reading for every born again Blairite. Goes on a bit though....

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26 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Surely everyone in the Labour Party should be “the left”.

The Labour Party includes Socialists and Social Democrats. 

It also includes people who would be in the Democrat Party if they had lived in America.  Supposedly to the left of the Republican Party (or the Tories) but I am not sure I would call them Left. 

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3 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

The Labour Party includes Socialists and Social Democrats. 

It also includes people who would be in the Democrat Party if they had lived in America.  Supposedly to the left of the Republican Party (or the Tories) but I am not sure I would call them Left. 

Difference between what is and what should be.  We have a U.K. centrist party for the centrists.

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2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Difference between what is and what should be.  We have a U.K. centrist party for the centrists.

Why do you think that would be?

You might consider using ASLEF in your answer.

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15 hours ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

Burgon is an idiot, but that is pathetically tame compared to even the staged shadow cabinet resignations, never mind sitting MPs like Ian Austin and Margaret Hodge repeatedly appearing in the media to tell people not to vote Labour because their party were the biggest bunch of racists since the nazis, before being rewarded with peerages from Boris Johnson.

It's not even on the same level.

 

I actually agree with this. When a politician tells folk not to vote for their party, they cannot really be part of the party any more. 

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2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

You’ve got me there, I cannot understand any part of that post!

It was a weary resignation that it could be different if only those that almost always represent the left weren't objectionably maladroit in some way shape or form. Or just shouty.

You'll be familiar with this.

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2 hours ago, sophia said:

It was a weary resignation that it could be different if only those that almost always represent the left weren't objectionably maladroit in some way shape or form. Or just shouty.

You'll be familiar with this.

Had to look up maladroit; every day’s a school day.

It’s been many years since I’ve been active in politics but I knew many folk in the Labour Party back in the day who were on the left and neither maladroit or shouty.

I would also suggest that there are elected politicians in the SNP who are definitely left of centre but have neither of these characteristics.

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