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What is the point of Labour ?


pawpar

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57 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

In my lifetime, the only times that Labour have been electable were briefly under Wilson and then long-term under Blair. 

As far as I can remember, outside Blair, there has only been a Labour government in Westminster in 12 of the last 121 years. That's absolutely fucking shocking for a party that consider themselves a major political force. 

A century of being in the political wilderness is not due to the media, or to Labour politicians who are not socialist enough. It's due to policies that the public don't want. It's due to an inability to connect to voters. It's due to a fanatic tendency to believe that socialism is the answer to everything, no matter the question. 

Labour have been political minnows for most of their existance, but due to the duopoly of Westminster politics they believe that they're big beasts that are relevant. 

White RoseKillie is a decent poster, but it's madness to suggest that appointing a leader who acted like a student socialist, refused to take a stance on the biggest issue since the 2nd world war, who spoke like a bumbling mumbleclown, and who looked like a permanent sack of shit was anything other then political suicide. 

 

Yup.

England seems to be permanently conservative with a small "c" at best. Blair and his "middle way" was conservatism with tax credits. They've tried everything since and still haven't come close to winning. It's over.

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34 minutes ago, TAFKAM said:

& now they've had someone who isn't all of those things for more than a year and they're polling worse than Corbyn, what's the explanation?

That’s a very good question.

However it should also be pointed out the paucity of talent in Labour.  I cannot think of a single Labour MP who would be a stand out as party leader.  That’s a shocking indictment of a major political party of a nation of over 50 million people.

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& now they've had someone who isn't all of those things for more than a year and they're polling worse than Corbyn, what's the explanation?
Labour have no genuine leadership material and a significant proportion of the electorate view them as an utter joke. They're fucked for at least the next 2 parliaments and that's being generous.
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19 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:
6 hours ago, TAFKAM said:
& now they've had someone who isn't all of those things for more than a year and they're polling worse than Corbyn, what's the explanation?

Labour have no genuine leadership material and a significant proportion of the electorate view them as an utter joke. They're fucked for at least the next 2 parliaments and that's being generous.

Labour devote an enormous amount of energy to a civil war that nobody else gives a shit about.

Are you a Corbynista or not? Blairite, Brownite.  What have you.

Keir Starmer is suffering.  Nobody has the slightest clue what a Starmerite is.

Big question.  If you are in the same party - do you actually have anything in common?

Until they can answer that question they are irrelevant to everyone else.

 

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Interesting!

Labour's next leader?

https://news.sky.com/story/john-bercow-former-commons-speaker-and-tory-mp-joins-labour-party-12336675

Quote

Mr Bercow said he regards the Tories under Boris Johnson as "reactionary, populist, nationalistic and sometimes even xenophobic".

 

He could have left out the word "sometimes" out of that.

Edited by ICTJohnboy
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On 19/06/2021 at 09:17, TAFKAM said:

Why do the Labour right fight with such ferocity against stuff that'd broadly speaking be pretty popular and good for people? I'm assuming some of them will be spooks but there's too many and they're too stupid, outwardly at least, for them all to be. Where does the energy come from?

I would go the other way tbh, I left the Party because our Constituency meetings were mired in anti semitic topics & hatred of others rather than focusing on how we can make a positive difference to peoples lives. Since I have returned, the hard left elements seem more intent on attacking those close to the centre rather than the Tories. I sit in the middle of the party, the likes of Starmer are Tory lite to me with his comfortable, North London Middle Class lifestyle & he is utterly useless but the vitriol & sheer closed minded poison of those on the far left is extremely disturbing. They will accuse the Tories of being nasty & in the next breath advocate murdering them all without a shred of self awareness.

We will be unelectable until we drop this self loathing hatred & actually get back to being a Party that wants to help people improve their lot in life rather than focusing on hating others due to their lucky circumstances.

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“The transcripts show that Mr Corbyn’s economic adviser Ali Moussavi said of Mr Corbyn to other senior staff in 2015: “We need to finish him.”
A press officer responded: “Hanging and burning does seem like overkill.”
Then head of broadcasting Jo Green said that any Labour MP “who nominates Corbyn ‘to widen the debate’ deserves to be taken out and shot.”
Then policy communications officer Dan Hogan added that a staff member who “whooped” during Corbyn’s speech “should be shot.”
And senior staff member Sarah Mulholland said she hoped that a young Labour member on the left of the party, who it was acknowledged has mental-health issues, “dies in a fire.”
Then audit director Mike Creighton responded: “That’s a very bad wish, Sarah. But if he does I wouldn’t piss on him to put him out.”

“The report includes claims that then governance & legal unit director Emilie Oldknow expected staff to “fabricate a case” against people “she doesn’t like/her friends don’t like” because of their political views.
During the 2015 leadership election, her department and others internally described their work as “hunting out 1,000s of Trots” and a “Trot hunt,” which included excluding people for having “liked” the Green Party on Facebook.
One staff member commented: “Everyone here considers anyone left of [Gordon] Brown to be a Trot.”
During the 2017 general election, staff also shockingly described “working to rule” when Mr Corbyn was elected and “coming in to the office and doing nothing for a few months.”

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41 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

“The transcripts show that Mr Corbyn’s economic adviser Ali Moussavi said of Mr Corbyn to other senior staff in 2015: “We need to finish him.”
A press officer responded: “Hanging and burning does seem like overkill.”
Then head of broadcasting Jo Green said that any Labour MP “who nominates Corbyn ‘to widen the debate’ deserves to be taken out and shot.”
Then policy communications officer Dan Hogan added that a staff member who “whooped” during Corbyn’s speech “should be shot.”
And senior staff member Sarah Mulholland said she hoped that a young Labour member on the left of the party, who it was acknowledged has mental-health issues, “dies in a fire.”
Then audit director Mike Creighton responded: “That’s a very bad wish, Sarah. But if he does I wouldn’t piss on him to put him out.”

“The report includes claims that then governance & legal unit director Emilie Oldknow expected staff to “fabricate a case” against people “she doesn’t like/her friends don’t like” because of their political views.
During the 2015 leadership election, her department and others internally described their work as “hunting out 1,000s of Trots” and a “Trot hunt,” which included excluding people for having “liked” the Green Party on Facebook.
One staff member commented: “Everyone here considers anyone left of [Gordon] Brown to be a Trot.”
During the 2017 general election, staff also shockingly described “working to rule” when Mr Corbyn was elected and “coming in to the office and doing nothing for a few months.”

The salient point is that we need to stop ripping ourselves apart over matters like this, the Momentum side of things are equally disgraceful when it comes to infighting to the point that they wish death on Jewish Party members among other unacceptable behaviours.

I left the Party in the first place because the Constituency members refused to expel an open anti-semite during Corbyns rise to power, this has since been addressed & that person has been removed from the Party, I am not happy with Starmer & his ineffectual "leadership", we need a socialist leader who has a clear direction to gain a mandate which addresses inequality but as has been signposted by many Countries, Marxism is not the answer, a left of centre Socialist Party is & that is what we need to work towards.

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On 18/06/2021 at 15:27, Bob Mahelp said:

White RoseKillie is a decent poster, but it's madness to suggest that appointing a leader who acted like a student socialist, refused to take a stance on the biggest issue since the 2nd world war, who spoke like a bumbling mumbleclown, and who looked like a permanent sack of shit was anything other then political suicide.

Aye, nobody could accuse Boris Johnson of being a socialist, or refusing to take a xenophobic stance.

58 minutes ago, Perkin Flump said:

The salient point is that we need to stop ripping ourselves apart over matters like this

Good luck. That's been the mantra of socialists and communists since before either of us were born. Christ, even before Granny Danger was born.

The Tories will have a go at each other over exactly how vicious and spiteful they want to be, but will always coalesce when the chips are down in case somebody takes something from them that they could lose and never notice. Those with the most to lose, fracture and split. Which is why there'll never be anything other than FPTP at Westminster, and why the poor are fucked for the foreseeable, likely until we take up arms again.

By that point, they'll have drones to "pacify" us too.

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Good luck. That's been the mantra of socialists and communists since before either of us were born. Christ, even before Granny Danger was born.
The Tories will have a go at each other over exactly how vicious and spiteful they want to be, but will always coalesce when the chips are down in case somebody takes something from them that they could lose and never notice. Those with the most to lose, fracture and split. Which is why there'll never be anything other than FPTP at Westminster, and why the poor are fucked for the foreseeable, likely until we take up arms again.
By that point, they'll have drones to "pacify" us too.


If Labour wanted to learn from a winning strategy in 2019 then Corbyn should’ve expelled all of his internal opponents and silenced any dissent like Johnson did. It’s clearly what Starmer’s backers, if not Starmer himself, are doing right now which I’m sure will work out well for them come the next time they need a manifesto. Good luck to them, I had the brief deranged thought about joining when I moved down here but realised it’s a waste of time so I’ve joined Acorn and will try and do some actual good instead.
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Part of Corbyn's issue with Jewish people wasn't so much what he said. It's that he somehow accumulated a host of batshit crazy followers who are utter anti-semites and he didn't do enough, or say enough, to get rid of them. It's an odd problem as past Labour leaders were not as consumed by this issue as Corbyn was. 

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On 18/06/2021 at 23:16, Fullerene said:

Labour devote an enormous amount of energy to a civil war that nobody else gives a shit about.

Are you a Corbynista or not? Blairite, Brownite.  What have you.

Keir Starmer is suffering.  Nobody has the slightest clue what a Starmerite is.

Big question.  If you are in the same party - do you actually have anything in common?

Until they can answer that question they are irrelevant to everyone else.

 

The issue appears incredibly complex but is very simple.  There are people in the Labour Party who should not be in the Labour Party.

The Labour Party is a left-of-centre political party.  For years it has been infiltrated by people who are not left-of-centre.  Some of them are careerists, others are simply agent provocateurs.  There’s a few pro-Zionists who fall into the latter category.

 

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8 hours ago, TAFKAM said:

What did you think Corbyn would have done to Jewish people if he got into power?

Pretty much what scottsdad said, Corbyn himself is not a bad person but he was miles out of depth as Party Leader & a lot of very nasty types coalesced around him & he was not able to realise the depth of that issue or deal with it.

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