What is the point of Labour ?

[scottsdad]

2017. The high tide of Corbyn. Read any Guardian article about Labour and the comments are filled with Corbyn types waxing lyrical about the miracle of 2017. Whilst ignoring the facts. 

2017 was the first post Brexit election. UKIP vanished and their 4 million or so votes split fairly evenly between Labour and the Tories. Post a surprising referendum outcome but before the result was implemented, against the worst campaigner I have ever seen in T May, Lib Dems still in the wilderness after their betrayal in the coalition... Many, many cards fell Labour's way in this freak oddity of election circumstances. And they still lost to Theresa May. 

For all they talk about 2017 as Corbyns moment, it really wasn't. He never became PM. Never introduced his policies. Helped nobody. 

[Detournement]

 

We need to figure out how Lula can be Brazilian President and also leader of the Labour Party. 

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, scottsdad said:

2017. The high tide of Corbyn. Read any Guardian article about Labour and the comments are filled with Corbyn types waxing lyrical about the miracle of 2017. Whilst ignoring the facts. 

2017 was the first post Brexit election. UKIP vanished and their 4 million or so votes split fairly evenly between Labour and the Tories. Post a surprising referendum outcome but before the result was implemented, against the worst campaigner I have ever seen in T May, Lib Dems still in the wilderness after their betrayal in the coalition... Many, many cards fell Labour's way in this freak oddity of election circumstances. And they still lost to Theresa May. 

For all they talk about 2017 as Corbyns moment, it really wasn't. He never became PM. Never introduced his policies. Helped nobody. 

The SNP lost 12 seats to the worst campaigner you've ever seen 

 

[sparky88]

1 hour ago, scottsdad said:

2017. The high tide of Corbyn. Read any Guardian article about Labour and the comments are filled with Corbyn types waxing lyrical about the miracle of 2017. Whilst ignoring the facts. 

2017 was the first post Brexit election. UKIP vanished and their 4 million or so votes split fairly evenly between Labour and the Tories. Post a surprising referendum outcome but before the result was implemented, against the worst campaigner I have ever seen in T May, Lib Dems still in the wilderness after their betrayal in the coalition... Many, many cards fell Labour's way in this freak oddity of election circumstances. And they still lost to Theresa May. 

For all they talk about 2017 as Corbyns moment, it really wasn't. He never became PM. Never introduced his policies. Helped nobody. 

2017 should have been a massive warning sign for Labour. 'haha isn't that funny that Labour won Canterbury!' was the wrong message to take - they should have been worried that they were making little headway in the Home Counties that Blair won in 1997. It's not possible to win a majority in England from the left.

[BFTD]

22 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

There are a few managers in my place who inexplicably think it takes ages to send a bunch of emails with attachments.

Maybe they've been asleep for 25 years?

Mind the days when you'd want to throttle someone if they emailed you a 1MB attachment and it turned out to be a zip file of cat pictures that had just cost you a quid to download.

4 hours ago, GordonS said:

Anyone who thinks that obviously doesn't remember 1992.

Major seemed vaguely competent in 1992, he wasn't Thatcher, and Labour were clownshoes hilarious in the run-in to the election they assumed they were going to win.

By 1997, everyone had experienced another five horrific years of the Conservative Party's exploration of the circles of hell. If by some miracle they'd won another term, they'd have been licking jelly off each other's nipples in the Commons, and replacing Unemployment Benefit with Soylent Green made from the babies of unemployed single mothers. Whom they'd impregnated in the first place. Against their will. During the vicar's sermon.

[btb]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

The SNP lost 12 seats to the worst campaigner you've ever seen 

 

I'm no fan but that's a bit harsh on Ruth Davidson!

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

 

We need to figure out how Lula can be Brazilian President and also leader of the Labour Party. 

Most people in Brazil are on low incomes. Most people in the UK are not... or at least, they don't think they are.

1 hour ago, Pato said:

Would 100% drop my Scottish nationalist aspirations if Brazil invaded

I've always thought that, if we have to be in a political union with someone, could we maybe find a better country to be in a union with? Could do worse than Brazil, but my vote goes to the Netherlands.

18 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Major seemed vaguely competent in 1992, he wasn't Thatcher, and Labour were clownshoes hilarious in the run-in to the election they assumed they were going to win.

By 1997, everyone had experienced another five horrific years of the Conservative Party's exploration of the circles of hell. If by some miracle they'd won another term, they'd have been licking jelly off each other's nipples in the Commons, and replacing Unemployment Benefit with Soylent Green made from the babies of unemployed single mothers. Whom they'd impregnated in the first place. Against their will. During the vicar's sermon.

1992 was a lot like 2017 - a new leader, given a fair wind, a good campaign against a relatively poor one. Difference is, Corbyn still lost while Major got more votes than any UK government in history.

They were still detested and Major was considered a joke in 1992. If England were a decent country Labour they would have elected Kinnock.

I've never thought the Labour campaign was nearly as bad as was claimed, though the Sheffield rally was ugly. Not sure that many people watched it though. Tbh I think anti-Welsh racism was a massive factor in that election.

[scottsdad]

14 hours ago, NotThePars said:

The SNP lost 12 seats to the worst campaigner you've ever seen 

 

The freak election here was 2015. Again, a post-Referendum election and the SNP scooped 56 out of 59 seats. There's no way they could have held on to that number going forward. So things settled back a little in 2017 in Scotland, but mostly because many Yes voters who turned out massively in 2015 stayed at home 2 years later after the Indyref dust had settled a bit. 

The SNP lost about at third of their votes from 2015 to 2017 (from ~1.5 million to ~1 million). 

What's interesting here is that the Tories picked up 12 seats and Oh Jeremy Corbyn picked up six. In Scotland.

[NotThePars]

1 minute ago, scottsdad said:

The freak election here was 2015. Again, a post-Referendum election and the SNP scooped 56 out of 59 seats. There's no way they could have held on to that number going forward. So things settled back a little in 2017 in Scotland, but mostly because many Yes voters who turned out massively in 2015 stayed at home 2 years later after the Indyref dust had settled a bit. 

The SNP lost about at third of their votes from 2015 to 2017 (from ~1.5 million to ~1 million). 

 

Sounds like cope to me.

The SNP won half those seats back in 2019 so either they fucked it against the worst campaigner you've ever seen and sufficiently recovered with a good campaign or they're overly reliant on surges of support partially external to their own abilities as campaigners (Indyref and Boris Johnson).

15 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

What's interesting here is that the Tories picked up 12 seats and Oh Jeremy Corbyn picked up six. In Scotland.

I could give the Flying Rodent answer to this but it's 10:45 on a Friday and who can be gassed with that argument.

[scottsdad]

27 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Sounds like cope to me.

The SNP won half those seats back in 2019 so either they fucked it against the worst campaigner you've ever seen and sufficiently recovered with a good campaign or they're overly reliant on surges of support partially external to their own abilities as campaigners (Indyref and Boris Johnson).

 

They did indeed recover a bit in 2019, back up to ~1.25 million votes. The reasons why are open to debate but I reckon include the real unpopularity of Corbyn (who lost the 6 he gained in 2017) and Johnson (who lost 7 of the seats May won in Scotland). 

Comparing SNP performance in 2017-2019 isn't the same as comparing Corbyn's however. In Scotland the Tories and Labour presented two leaders, a Scottish one and a UK one. Much of what I've discussed about the Labour "win" in 2017 relates to England. Scotland has a different dynamic. In 2017 Ruth Davidson led the Scottish Tories, and she was a good campaigner. In 2019 it was Jackson Carlaw, who wasn't. Theresa May stayed well out of it. 

[Juanhourjoe]

5 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Comparing SNP performance in 2017-2019 isn't the same as comparing Corbyn's however. In Scotland the Tories and Labour presented two leaders, a Scottish one and a UK one. Much of what I've discussed about the Labour "win" in 2017 relates to England. Scotland has a different dynamic. In 2017 Ruth Davidson led the Scottish Tories, and she was a good campaigner. In 2019 it was Jackson Carlaw, who wasn't. Theresa May stayed well out of it. 

I think Corbyn was pretty popular in Scotland. I know quite a few, who 2017 was there first and only time voting labour. A lot of people will choose a socialist option when offered. I think his biggest issue was the rest of the labour party.

As discussed above the rise again of the SNP vote, I think is labour no longer seeming an option. After it was clear socialism wasn't going to be the main focus of the party.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, Juanhourjoe said:

I think Corbyn was pretty popular in Scotland. I know quite a few, who 2017 was there first and only time voting labour. A lot of people will choose a socialist option when offered. I think his biggest issue was the rest of the labour party.

As discussed above the rise again of the SNP vote, I think is labour no longer seeming an option. After it was clear socialism wasn't going to be the main focus of the party.

Corbyn was relatively popular in Scotland for the same reason he was popular in London, university towns, the centres of most cities and among young people for the same reason he was unpopular in the home counties, the South West, the East of England, the Midlands and Yorkshire - because he was seen as a socialist. 

I think it's fair to say that he was very bad at politics though. Remember the train wreck radio interview when he was trying to look up numbers on an iPad? 

 

[Thistle_do_nicely]

i think im starting to fall in love with the northern independence party, absolute savages that they are

[SANTAN]

My favourite Corbyn moment was probably the tit slap. Although I was definitely against Corbyn I think Miliband being tough enuss was actually more entertaining though. 

What's the script with the NIP, I thought they were some sincere group (I barely looked into it) but it appears they're disgruntled Labour members?

[GNU_Linux]

NOOTen Independence Party.
 

 

[SANTAN]

Good man.

[scottsdad]

When I think of the great socialist orators of the past - Foot, Kinnock and so many others - Corbyn was hopeless. When making a speech he never quite got the habit of making snappy points and pausing to let it sink in. He just kept going on long, rambling sentences and not allowing, say, an applause. 

Starmer is no great shakes in this regard either. 

The best performance I have heard in recent years from a Labour politician was back in (I think) September. Keir Starmer was self-isolating and so Ed Miliband stood in. Johnson, hearing this, decided to take on Miliband instead of letting Alok Sharma do it. It was related to Brexit and Johnson thought he's get a free hit taking on Miliband. I was in the kitchen when this was on the radio and by the end I was grinning from ear to ear. Never heard anyone tear Johnson a new arse like that before, or since. 

In full here, a fun 15 minutes.

 

[HTG]

Kier has had an interesting day ...

https://mobile.twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1384170557990522895

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, HTG said:

Kier has had an interesting day ...

https://mobile.twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1384170557990522895

The landlord seems like a total w****r.

[NotThePars]

Fair play if that's some security guard for Starmer preventing a guy from entering his own pub