What is the point of Labour ?

[Gordon EF]

2 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

As I believe their strategy seems to be winning back my types of voters by being a strong centre ground Unionist party (Kinda like NTP was saying re Sarwar over Lennon) where as their goal is to win the LAB2SNP voters back by the devo offers, again I don't think this will be substantial but I believe that they believe they can win some of the softer voters round. Lennon seems more vocally supportive of this option. 

I think Labour's only route back is a clear, significant, distinctive and attractive proposition for increased devolution. That's the easy bit. Figuring out what that looks like and getting everyone to agree to it is obviously the hard part.

At the moment, nobody believes Labour are even the best route to increased devolution. If Labour are only reactionary about it then (probably counter-intuitively to most folk in the party), continuing to vote SNP to force Labour onto that ground is actually the best bet for soft Yessers / devo maxers.

[NotThePars]

Aye I think it really depends on who wins between Lennon and Sarwar over where the direction will go even if I think a Lennon win doesn’t get the melt wing of the party fully on board because of the toys going out the pram again.

Sarwar wins and you see the Aberdeen councillors reintegrated back into the party. That definitely happens, imo.

Loads of the young lefty members have left anaw which is what Sarwar and co want but good luck getting people to (virtually) knock doors. If I’m getting emails asking about why I left then I know they’re struggling for activists haha.

[G51]

Imagine being a Scottish Labour politician. You see yourself scrapping with the Tories and the Lib Dems for c. 40% of the voting public. You also see the SNP regularly getting 50%+ in the polls with no one to realistically challenge them, and one of the main criticisms of them being that they're little more than a collection of technocrats but people have no valid left-wing option that supports independence, given that the Greens are very much a minority party that no one really takes seriously.

Then imagine you decide to double down on the existing strategy and keep fighting for scraps by moving closer to the centre and re-affirming your pro-Union credentials.

In a few months time, they'll turn round and wonder "How come the SNP keep getting so many votes"

 

[HTG]

I get that Labour as a matter of principle see themselves as an internationalist organisation and that from that perspective it's difficult to support something that breaks up an entity like the UK. But there doesn't seem to be much in the way of "hands across the sea" under Starmer so on a practical level that internationalist outlook doesn't translate to a hill of beans. 

What's left of Labour in Scotland is unionist almost to the core. Much of Labour's support in England voted very clearly for "Island independence" which is pretty much a declaration of English independence given that the rest of the UK gets what England votes for. 

So it's a bit of a clusterfuck for them in Scotland.

[Gordon EF]

23 minutes ago, HTG said:

I get that Labour as a matter of principle see themselves as an internationalist organisation and that from that perspective it's difficult to support something that breaks up an entity like the UK. But there doesn't seem to be much in the way of "hands across the sea" under Starmer so on a practical level that internationalist outlook doesn't translate to a hill of beans. 

There are maybe a few in Labour who genuinely think like this although I can't see a sensible reason for taking that position. Frankly, I don't believe a word coming out of the mouths of most of the folk who spout this stuff. They should just say they're a unionist. There's nothing wrong with that.

[HTG]

9 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

There are maybe a few in Labour who genuinely think like this although I can't see a sensible reason for taking that position. Frankly, I don't believe a word coming out of the mouths of most of the folk who spout this stuff. They should just say they're a unionist. There's nothing wrong with that.

Agreed. It's a cover story. You often see it expressed as having the same degree of empathy for a shipyard worker in Glasgow or Liverpool (if there are any left). But for some reason, not Zeebrugge or Boulogne.

[NotThePars]

Agreed. It's a cover story. You often see it expressed as having the same degree of empathy for a shipyard worker in Glasgow or Liverpool (if there are any left). But for some reason, not Zeebrugge or Boulogne.

A lot of these people were presumably Remainers though and supported Leonard’s party coming out for a second referendum.

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, HTG said:

Agreed. It's a cover story. You often see it expressed as having the same degree of empathy for a shipyard worker in Glasgow or Liverpool (if there are any left). But for some reason, not Zeebrugge or Boulogne.

Exactly this. If that's what they think it should be easy to find the numerous times they've spoken out against national borders in general. Strangely, there only seems to be one extra border they're very keen not to exist.

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

 

A lot of these people were presumably Remainers though and supported Leonard’s party coming out for a second referendum.

 

I think being in favour of the EU is wildly different from the kind of "we should all just be one world. No countries man" type stuff some of them spout.

I fully accept they do tend to be internationalists. But they're generally not fighting on the barricades to do away with nation states altogether, except when they don't want to admit that they're against independence simply because they're a unionist at heart.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Gordon EF

[vikingTON]

The majority of Labour supporters UK-wide aren't British nationalists: they just want Scotland and Wales to serve as a guaranteed source of MPs while their party focuses on their real goal of outflanking UKIP for the Grimsby Man voter via flegs. 

Scottish Labour on the other hand are a rump of uber-staunch Britnats, comparable only to the pallet-burners in their constant need for London's support. 

[Granny Danger]

Labour trying to steal the Tories’ clothes.
 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals

Clive Lewis’s comments are interesting.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

[NotThePars]

Authentocracy is back baby, it’s good again Awhoo (wolf howl)

[G51]

Goodbye, meaningful change.

Hello, speedy aircraft boarding for the Armed Forces!

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Well thats labour fucked in Scotland even more now eh?

[dirty dingus]

 

[Thistle_do_nicely]

[renton]

2 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Translation: Moseley was onto something, we shouldn't have kicked him out.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

'Dressing smartly'

[Antlion]

42 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

 

MOAR NATIONALISM! It seems clear that Starmer thinks going Tory light will win back the red wall racists. The problem he has is that Labour will be never seen as being quite as racist and nationalist as the Tories and UKIP. If support for Labour rises in its old English heartlands (they’ve given up on Scotland, at least) if will be because the Tories lose it, not because Labour win it.