What is the point of Labour ?

[pandarilla]

I literally said policy wise. Even charisma wise, I kinda get it off how he tries to frame himself but it just smacks of the UK people that are obsessed with the West Wing and their fascination with David Miliband. Someone that generates this headline is going to make an irrevocable tit of himself sooner rather than later.
 

I take it it's now the woke thing to hate the west wing?

I think there's a genuine difference between burnham and starmer, both in style and in policy. Milliband was definitely centre left in policy terms but goodbye have the style to make any inroads to middle England. I reckon burnham could do that - or at least he's the most likely to do it.

[NotThePars]

3 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

I take it it's now the woke thing to hate the west wing?

I think there's a genuine difference between burnham and starmer, both in style and in policy. Milliband was definitely centre left in policy terms but goodbye have the style to make any inroads to middle England. I reckon burnham could do that - or at least he's the most likely to do it.
 

What's being woke got to do with anything?

It's not about whether there's a difference in style and or policy, it's whether they have the courage of their convictions to stand behind what they believe in and I don't think there's anything to suggest Andy Burnham would resist the goblins on the right of the party from dismantling any genuine progressive shift in the party.

Just because he ticks a few boxes that appeal to authentocrats doesn't mean he's going to be remotely different in policy from Miliband or even Starmer which is evidenced by his career of generally being amiable but a shitebag. I think the best example of that was him saying Labour made a huge mistake abstaining on the welfare bill that brought Corbyn in but he literally abstained on that vote. Spineless.

[GordonS]

15 hours ago, Day of the Lords said:

Well, that's 254 pages into this thread now. Has anyone yet identified the point of Labour? I'm beginning to think there isn't one tbqh. 

My tuppence worth:

The point of UK Labour is changing as there's a great realignment happening among the electorate. Instead of being the party of the lowest paid workers and unemployed they'll have to be the party of liberals, progressives, cities, young people, graduates and ethnic minorities. The Tories are for nationalists, old people, rural areas, lower educated and traditionalists. Like in the US. Income has less to do with it than ever before and neither will be much good for people on the lowest incomes, though one will certainly be worse than the other.

The English working class no longer exists.

The point of Scottish Labour is mostly as a home for those on the left who feel we're inherently inferior to England. Like Johan Lamont, they think Scottish people are fundamentally a bit shite. They don't believe we could be a Finland, or even an Ireland, and that we couldn't survive without the English looking after us. This was only partially true until Brexit, but they now prefer a Scotland inside the UK and outside the EU over a Scotland outside the UK and inside the EU - even though it's a UK that in December chose to be led by a racist, corrupt, incompetent Honey Monster.

 

Just my take, if anyone thinks it's mince that's fine.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

I take it it's now the woke thing to hate the west wing?
 

The West Wing is great, I think it might be the best TV series ever... or at least until Mad Men. But some folk are obsessed with it, as Notthepars said. Like Toby in The Thick Of It fantasising about being Josh.

As the man himself said: "I'm a fan. I'm a sports fan, I'm a music fan and I'm a Star Trek fan. All of them. But here's what I don't do. Tell me if any of this sounds familiar: "Let's list our ten favorite episodes. Let's list our least favorite episodes. Let's list our favorite galaxies. Let's make a chart to see how often our favorite galaxies appear in our favorite episodes. What Romulan would you most like to see coupled with a Cardassian and why? Let's spend a weekend talking about Romulans falling in love with Cardassians and then let's do it again." That's not being a fan. That's having a fetish."

[Fullerene]

8 hours ago, GordonS said:

The West Wing is great, I think it might be the best TV series ever... or at least until Mad Men. But some folk are obsessed with it, as Notthepars said. Like Toby in The Thick Of It fantasising about being Josh.

As the man himself said: "I'm a fan. I'm a sports fan, I'm a music fan and I'm a Star Trek fan. All of them. But here's what I don't do. Tell me if any of this sounds familiar: "Let's list our ten favorite episodes. Let's list our least favorite episodes. Let's list our favorite galaxies. Let's make a chart to see how often our favorite galaxies appear in our favorite episodes. What Romulan would you most like to see coupled with a Cardassian and why? Let's spend a weekend talking about Romulans falling in love with Cardassians and then let's do it again." That's not being a fan. That's having a fetish."

 

[pandarilla]

The West Wing is great, I think it might be the best TV series ever... or at least until Mad Men. But some folk are obsessed with it, as Notthepars said. Like Toby in The Thick Of It fantasising about being Josh.
As the man himself said: "I'm a fan. I'm a sports fan, I'm a music fan and I'm a Star Trek fan. All of them. But here's what I don't do. Tell me if any of this sounds familiar: "Let's list our ten favorite episodes. Let's list our least favorite episodes. Let's list our favorite galaxies. Let's make a chart to see how often our favorite galaxies appear in our favorite episodes. What Romulan would you most like to see coupled with a Cardassian and why? Let's spend a weekend talking about Romulans falling in love with Cardassians and then let's do it again." That's not being a fan. That's having a fetish."

I fully agree.

I've just noticed a few posts recently that seem to be using the west wing as some sort of barometer of something that's shite - like it's no longer acceptable to like the west wing.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, pandarilla said:

I fully agree.

I've just noticed a few posts recently that seem to be using the west wing as some sort of barometer of something that's shite - like it's no longer acceptable to like the west wing.

I've not noticed that, but maybe it's because I've presumed it was a dig at the fanatics rather than the show. About 14 -15 years ago I was in the office of the Scottish Government's Strategy Unit in St Andrew's House and they had a West Wing poster on the wall. A few of them clearly believed they were living it out in real life. It was heinous.

I'll defend the show to my dying breath though. It's close to unique in being neither plot or character driven, but dialogue-driven. It's cheesy in places, Sorkin never understood international issues and some of it hasn't aged that well, but I'll ignore its every sin for just the last six episodes of season 2, which collectively make up the best film or TV I've ever seen. 

[pandarilla]

I've not noticed that, but maybe it's because I've presumed it was a dig at the fanatics rather than the show. About 14 -15 years ago I was in the office of the Scottish Government's Strategy Unit in St Andrew's House and they had a West Wing poster on the wall. A few of them clearly believed they were living it out in real life. It was heinous.
I'll defend the show to my dying breath though. It's close to unique in being neither plot or character driven, but dialogue-driven. It's cheesy in places, Sorkin never understood international issues and some of it hasn't aged that well, but I'll ignore its every sin for just the last six episodes of season 2, which collectively make up the best film or TV I've ever seen. 

It's so idealistic but so inspiring.

There are always folk who take things too far but I'd probably forgive a poster.

[Granny Danger]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

I've not noticed that, but maybe it's because I've presumed it was a dig at the fanatics rather than the show. About 14 -15 years ago I was in the office of the Scottish Government's Strategy Unit in St Andrew's House and they had a West Wing poster on the wall. A few of them clearly believed they were living it out in real life. It was heinous.

I'll defend the show to my dying breath though. It's close to unique in being neither plot or character driven, but dialogue-driven. It's cheesy in places, Sorkin never understood international issues and some of it hasn't aged that well, but I'll ignore its every sin for just the last six episodes of season 2, which collectively make up the best film or TV I've ever seen. 

Never watched the West Wing but loved The Newsroom, also by Aaron Sorkin.

[GordonS]

The West Wing is the w**k bank motherlode for centrist politicians and their hangers on so obviously it's wide open for scorn.
It's fine TV but don't kid yourself it's some groundbreaking thing. It became so popular because it ran during GW Bush's presidency and offered an alternate reality to Americans who didn't - and still don't - want to face the reality of 21st century USA. 

It was already popular before Dubya won, but yeah, it was fantasy, wish-fulfilment, an imagining of a noble administration in a much better America. It was a plausible America at the time but it can be a sore watch now.

[pandarilla]

Never watched the West Wing but loved The Newsroom, also by Aaron Sorkin.

I liked the first series of the newsroom, but the west wing is miles better (if a little dated now).

[invergowrie arab]

On 16/10/2020 at 22:12, pandarilla said:

I take it it's now the woke thing to hate the west wing?

 

Think I might have damaged my spine I cringed so hard at this.

[Detournement]

 

I'm going to follow this Hirsh guy cause this is the funniest shit I've seen in a while.

[pandarilla]

Think I might have damaged my spine I cringed so hard at this.

Take care, mate. I did my back in a couple of weeks ago and it's not fun.

[Dunning1874]

On 18/10/2020 at 09:14, MixuFruit said:

The West Wing is the w**k bank motherlode for centrist politicians and their hangers on so obviously it's wide open for scorn.

It's fine TV but don't kid yourself it's some groundbreaking thing. It became so popular because it ran during GW Bush's presidency and offered an alternate reality to Americans who didn't - and still don't - want to face the reality of 21st century USA. 

Yeah, there's no inconsistency in recognising it's a compelling and sometimes excellent programme despite the idealism and cloying nature of Sorkin's writing, while also acknowledging that it's given a significant number of the centrist idealists who loved it brain worms along with much of it dating horribly (CJ ranting about affirmative action ruining her father's career prospects comes to mind before we even go near repeat issues like foreign policy and portrayals of women).

Of course it's more of a US issue and obviously those who've allowed one television programme to so heavily influence their worldview are to blame rather than anyone involved in making it. However you can genuinely see a through line from the West Wing's projection of an idealised version of politics where compromise and consensus consistently succeed with good faith actors on all sides finding common ground for the good of democracy despite their ideological differences *Charlie looks on sincerely* to the enduring faith of some Democrats in bipartisanship, politeness, taking Republicans at face value and the importance of strictly abiding by convention even as they've been consistently ratfucked by a party showing absolutely no interest in compromise, precedent or the rule of law for decades.

While the main contributing factor is Blairism, this is repeated in the Labour Party with their belief that a 'moderate, decent Conservative Party' is just waiting to emerge, oust Johnson along with the more mendacious fuckers in cabinet like Patel & Gove, join a customs union with the EU and above all else stop being so mean if Labour just demonstrates that they can work alongside those moderates in the centre ground in the spirit of compromise by, erm, failing to vote against anything the Tories propose no matter how evil. The fact that no Tories are breaking the whip when the government legalises murder and rape by the state somehow hasn't resulted in them accepting the futility of this approach.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Dunning1874

[Gordon EF]

5 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Yeah, there's no inconsistency in recognising it's a compelling and sometimes excellent programme despite the idealism and cloying nature of Sorkin's writing, while also acknowledging that it's given a significant number of the centrist idealists who loved it brain worms along with much of it dating horribly (CJ ranting about affirmative action ruining her father's career prospects comes to mind before we even go near repeat issues like foreign policy and portrayals of women).

Of course it's more of a US issue and obviously those who've allowed one television programme to so heavily influence their worldview are to blame rather than anyone involved in making it. However you can genuinely see a through line from the West Wing's projection of an idealised version of politics where compromise and consensus consistently succeed with good faith actors on all sides finding common ground for the good of democracy despite their ideological differences *Charlie looks on sincerely* to the enduring faith of some Democrats in bipartisanship, politeness, taking Republicans at face value and the importance of strictly abiding by convention even as they've been consistently ratfucked by a party showing absolutely no interest in compromise, precedent or the rule of law for decades.

While the main contributing factor is Blairism, this is repeated in the Labour Party with their belief that a 'moderate, decent Conservative Party' is just waiting to emerge, oust Johnson along with the more mendacious fuckers in cabinet like Patel & Gove, join a customs union with the EU and above all else stop being so mean if Labour just demonstrates that they can work alongside those moderates in the centre ground in the spirit of compromise by, erm, failing to vote against anything the Tories propose no matter how evil. The fact that no Tories are breaking the whip when the government legalises murder and rape by the state somehow hasn't resulted in them accepting the futility of this approach.

That's a really interesting take. Personally, I think it's a little bit too neat. I think it's less likely that a bunch of centrists and centre-leftists who were predisposed to partisanship watched the WW and got a hardon for compromise and acting in good faith, rather than the WW appealing to people who're already predisposed to thinking of the world that way.

Still, it'd be kind of funny if it turned out Aaron Sorkin had a large hand in enabling the birth of a brutal, dumb new right wing politics by writing a show about an idealised centre-left administration. 

[CambieBud]

So....................................erm...............what is the point of Labour?

[GordonS]

8 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Yeah, there's no inconsistency in recognising it's a compelling and sometimes excellent programme despite the idealism and cloying nature of Sorkin's writing, while also acknowledging that it's given a significant number of the centrist idealists who loved it brain worms along with much of it dating horribly (CJ ranting about affirmative action ruining her father's career prospects comes to mind before we even go near repeat issues like foreign policy and portrayals of women).

Of course it's more of a US issue and obviously those who've allowed one television programme to so heavily influence their worldview are to blame rather than anyone involved in making it. However you can genuinely see a through line from the West Wing's projection of an idealised version of politics where compromise and consensus consistently succeed with good faith actors on all sides finding common ground for the good of democracy despite their ideological differences *Charlie looks on sincerely* to the enduring faith of some Democrats in bipartisanship, politeness, taking Republicans at face value and the importance of strictly abiding by convention even as they've been consistently ratfucked by a party showing absolutely no interest in compromise, precedent or the rule of law for decades.

While the main contributing factor is Blairism, this is repeated in the Labour Party with their belief that a 'moderate, decent Conservative Party' is just waiting to emerge, oust Johnson along with the more mendacious fuckers in cabinet like Patel & Gove, join a customs union with the EU and above all else stop being so mean if Labour just demonstrates that they can work alongside those moderates in the centre ground in the spirit of compromise by, erm, failing to vote against anything the Tories propose no matter how evil. The fact that no Tories are breaking the whip when the government legalises murder and rape by the state somehow hasn't resulted in them accepting the futility of this approach.

Yeah, as GordonEF said, that's a bit too neat. Sorkin's a liberal lefty so in order to make a TV programme on a mainstream channel more balanced he had to have lots of good Republicans. They're be no means all good - "I'll be waiting in the tall grass for you Senator, because people like you are killing the party." The Republican presidential candidate Sorkin wrote is as dumb as a box of frogs and he gets blown away by intelligent elitism. A running feature is the tension between idealism and pragmatism, which Bartlet and Leo fight about, and there are plenty of times they go for pure idealism.

Some of it was also after 9/11, when there was a strong desire for bipartisanship - unfortunately.

Sorkin's last episode aired in 2003, before the Republicans were infected by the Tea Party and went batshit crazy. You see more of his attitude to that in The Newsroom.

[GordonS]

26 minutes ago, CambieBud said:

So....................................erm...............what is the point of Labour?

This wee diversion is relevant to the point of Labour because Labour staffer types are obsessed by the West Wing, and it doesn't do them any good.

[DrewDon]

I thought The Newsroom was saccharine shite.