What is the point of Labour ?

[BFTD]

42 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Have to say that somebody who will remain nameless here's posting style makes you think he's getting flashbacks from a Da Nang firefight.

I get that feeling every time a new poster arrives who uses all caps.

SCOTTISH FOOTBALL IS FUCKED IT'S ALL OVER CHARLIE HAS CAPTURED OUR POSITION

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

38 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Yeah, I suppose that's one way of looking at it.

Lol. 

 

 

[Wee Willie]

4 hours ago, Wee Willie said:

He's surely the only option.

But both Labour and the Tories support Trident in Scottish waters.

And both Labour and the Tories support Scotland paying for English projects.

IF Labour were to form a UK government what benefit do you see for Scotland?

 

4 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Well the most urgent one would be urgent rolling back of the benefits system to get rid of universal credit. After that I think they'd strike a much more pragmatic tone with the EU and get us to some kind of deal across affected sectors. Higher education & associated research in Scotland is going to be badly affected (already is according to some pals) by losing out on EU grant money. I think both of those are pretty important and likely to improve significantly with a Labour government.

But Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. How would a UK Labour government deal with that.

And why would a UK Labour government deal with Scotland losing out on EU grants.

Don't you think it would just be the same old, same old where Scotland gets tagged on to England and it's a one size fits all?

I've already pointed out that on two important issues in Scotland the Tories and Labour are on the same side.

I could also add that both of them are against another referendum on Scottish independence.

Yet you think a UK Labour government would work for Scotland.

[oneteaminglasgow]

10 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

 

But Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. How would a UK Labour government deal with that.

And why would a UK Labour government deal with Scotland losing out on EU grants.

Don't you think it would just be the same old, same old where Scotland gets tagged on to England and it's a one size fits all?

I've already pointed out that on two important issues in Scotland the Tories and Labour are on the same side.

I could also add that both of them are against another referendum on Scottish independence.

Yet you think a UK Labour government would work for Scotland.

Fucking hell.

Yes, a UK Labour government would still take Scotland out of the EU against the expressed wishes of the Scottish electorate, which is unacceptable. However, they would be likely to do so in a less damaging (economically, at least) way than the Tories.

Yes, the UK Labour government would likely lump us in with England in a one size fits all manner with policy. However, they would be likely to pursue policies which are less damaging to the lives of Scottish people (I.e. on Universal Credit) than the Tories.

A UK Labour Government would, undoubtedly, be better for Scotland than a UK Tory government. That doesn’t mean that it would be my, or @MixuFruits, first choice.

[pandarilla]

Wee willie talks a lot about Scotland voting to stay in the eu but I've never seen him use the same argument about Scotland voting to stay in the uk.

It was considerably closer, yes. But still quite a decisive referendum result.

[Wee Willie]

1 hour ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Fucking hell.

Yes, a UK Labour government would still take Scotland out of the EU against the expressed wishes of the Scottish electorate, which is unacceptable. However, they would be likely to do so in a less damaging (economically, at least) way than the Tories.

Yes, the UK Labour government would likely lump us in with England in a one size fits all manner with policy. However, they would be likely to pursue policies which are less damaging to the lives of Scottish people (I.e. on Universal Credit) than the Tories.

A UK Labour Government would, undoubtedly, be better for Scotland than a UK Tory government. That doesn’t mean that it would be my, or @MixuFruits, first choice.

How dae ye ken they would fix policies which are less damaging to Scots. You seem to think that they are on the side of the working man.

What do you base that on? Remember we are still talking about Scotland. We would still have all these things I posted earlier.

I downloaded this . Do you remember it. Labour abstaining at every chance they could.

When have they ever stood up for Scotland.

 

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

Pretty much this ^

My first preference is independence but while we wait if the choice is between the tories and a marginally less psychopathic party in power in London then I'm happy if the second option prevails.

But you didnae say that in your post.

I'll accept your description of the Labour party as marginally less psychopathic but dinnae think they will ever consider Scotland as being important enough to have policies tailor made for us.

 

 

59 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Wee willie talks a lot about Scotland voting to stay in the eu but I've never seen him use the same argument about Scotland voting to stay in the uk.

It was considerably closer, yes. But still quite a decisive referendum result.

What's your point?

Do you think it was a 'once in a generation' vote.

We lost but that was 6 years ago and an auld Labour Leader (he's deid now) once said that a week was a long time in Politics

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Wasn't it not so much attacking the IDF as saying that maybe the Minneapolis police department shouldn't be getting trained by the IDF?

If it was anybody else they wouldn't have said anything.

And they are trying to make a tenuous link to the death - my understanding is George Floyd died because the police hadn't followed their training not because of it.

[Antlion]

7 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

The context of the discussion is given a choice between the tories and labour being in charge in London, which would you prefer, that's all.

Depends on your ultimate goal. Do you want Labour stabbing us in the back or the Tories stabbing us in the front? If Labour did go on a borrowing and spending spree, it might be that they hoodwink enough Scots (again) into believing that they’re better off permanently in the UK under a (temporary) Labour government. The problem is that even if Labour were less bad for Scotland at UK-level than the Tories, their propensity for causing permanent damage is arguably greater due to their history of promising more than they can ever deliver (and this includes their promises of the union being better provided they’re in charge of it). At least with the Tories, plenty of folk can and will see the damage they do (socially and constitutionally) whereas Labour tend to mask what they do behind smiles and promises of perpetual comradeship.

[Gordon EF]

49 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

If it was anybody else they wouldn't have said anything.

And they are trying to make a tenuous link to the death - my understanding is George Floyd died because the police hadn't followed their training not because of it.
 

Well the IDF is also a fairly well known example of a military force which brutalizes civilians.

[Detournement]

12 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Well the IDF is also a fairly well known example of a military force which brutalizes civilians.

It's not simply the level of violence it's the fact that Israel practices racist subjugation.

 

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to say there was less abject misery for those least able to defend themselves under Labour. Don't take this as an endorsement of Labour I'm just saying if those are the two options available right now then I'm going to want it to be Labour.

This is probably true - at least until the bubble burst. The problem is that Labour give momentary relief (and even then it’s very light and unsustainable relief, because they still operate under a broadly Thatcherite model) that essentially then just increases the pain that exists most of the time (the Tories brutally and gleefully “sorting the mess Labour left” the majority of the time in UK politics). 

[SandyCromarty]

On 29/06/2020 at 09:28, MixuFruit said:

Well the most urgent one would be urgent rolling back of the benefits system to get rid of universal credit. After that I think they'd strike a much more pragmatic tone with the EU and get us to some kind of deal across affected sectors. Higher education & associated research in Scotland is going to be badly affected (already is according to some pals) by losing out on EU grant money. I think both of those are pretty important and likely to improve significantly with a Labour government.

Scotland, some years back, was predominantly Labour yet now it's a totally spent third party in the Scottish Governement, during those Labour years I distinctly remember that our major steel and shipbuilding industries were run into the ground and Scots, like the Irish, headed south for work, Corby a prime example.

The Labour party, founded by Scots, unfortunately sought it's power in England and neglected it's core support here, we are not fools and moved our vote nearer home to a Party that is Scottish and cares for it's people..

If the Labour Party does gain power in the future it goes without saying that again we Scots will be ignored and major Scottish issues such as nuclear weapons on our doorstep will be supported by the Labour Party.

[Wee Willie]

18 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

The context of the discussion is given a choice between the tories and labour being in charge in London, which would you prefer, that's all.

I understand what you're saying but c'mon one is as bad as the other.

If the last GE had went Labours way then this cnut would have been the Scottish Secretary of State.

The mind boggles!

17 hours ago, Antlion said:

Depends on your ultimate goal. Do you want Labour stabbing us in the back or the Tories stabbing us in the front? If Labour did go on a borrowing and spending spree, it might be that they hoodwink enough Scots (again) into believing that they’re better off permanently in the UK under a (temporary) Labour government. The problem is that even if Labour were less bad for Scotland at UK-level than the Tories, their propensity for causing permanent damage is arguably greater due to their history of promising more than they can ever deliver (and this includes their promises of the union being better provided they’re in charge of it). At least with the Tories, plenty of folk can and will see the damage they do (socially and constitutionally) whereas Labour tend to mask what they do behind smiles and promises of perpetual comradeship.

Then award themselves knighthoods and join the Tories in all but name.

34 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

On the first bolded thing: this was a Thatcher thing was it not?

On the second: given they'll almost certaintly have to depend on SNP support I'm not sure that's really possible.

Do you really think the Labour party would give up nuclear weapons? That would mean they couldnae play with the big boys.

They could govern with the LibDems or as a minority government.

This is from the BBC

Strength of British military falls for ninth year

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49365599

 

Labour said the government was "running down" the UK military - calling it a "crisis" in recruitment and retention.

Shadow defence secretary Nia Griffith said the government was running down the armed forces "year after year" and the numbers were "well below their own targets".

She said: "Ministers are either in complete denial about this crisis in recruitment and retention, or they are actively in favour of cutting the armed forces to these historically low levels."

_____________

Who would have thought that the Labour party were the warmongers and you think they might give up Trident!

[SandyCromarty]

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

On the first bolded thing: this was a Thatcher thing was it not?

On the second: given they'll almost certaintly have to depend on SNP support I'm not sure that's really possible.

Edward Heath as PM in 1971 saved Rolls Royce and Upper Clyde Shipbuilders from bankruptcy by taking them into public ownership, this was seen by thatcher to be abhorrent to her conservative ideals and furthered her hatred of Heath.

Tony Blair did nothing to regenerate Clydeside after his landslide victory, ironic in that his illegitimate born father had been adopted and raised by a Govan shipyard worker and was educated at a Govan school.

Bear in mind that Labour's ignorance towards Scottish working classes led to that most ardent socialist Jimmy Reid joining the SNP and their rightful downfall in Scottish politics.

[Antlion]

27 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

All this tells you is that actions have permanent consequences and it's not just a case of flipping a switch. Shipbuilding was hammered in Scotland and other competitors elsewhere filled that gap. That isn't Labour's fault and really it's getting further and further away from the central point being discussed which is if you've got 2 choices at westminster and one of them is killing people on purpose through institutional neglect and the other lot didn't do that last time they were in power then it's a no brainer who you want in charge in westminster.

 Not if it’s going to lead directly to decades in which even more people will be killed on purpose through institutional neglect, when the Tories return to power and set about making up for lost time. And that’s what a Labour government in the UK historically is - a brief period the length of which dictates how long and how brutal the inevitable subsequent period of Tory rule is. In other words, getting Labour in the UK means potentially saving a few lives for a day so that even more can be taken for a week afterwards. A further danger that can’t be ignored is that the promise of that single day of respite is one that Labour will try and use to stymie Scotland ever daring to achieve any thing else than the brutal cycle of brief Labour rule: long Tory rule.

[NotThePars]

There's a good running thread I need to have a look for that highlights that Blair's government did lay a lot of the groundwork for the coalition government to crack on with ruining the lives of millions of people in this country. Iraq was such a glaring and horrific disaster that it obscures how pettily cruel the New Labour years were.

 

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

There's a good running thread I need to have a look for that highlights that Blair's government did lay a lot of the groundwork for the coalition government to crack on with ruining the lives of millions of people in this country. Iraq was such a glaring and horrific disaster that it obscures how pettily cruel the New Labour years were.
 
 

Blair's first term was pretty successful, but perhaps despite New Labour, not because of it. The successes they had were down to policies inherited from John Smith - if devolution, for example, had not been Labour policy, I doubt very much that the Blairite control freaks would have supported it.

[Wee Willie]

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

Well then you don't understand what I'm saying.

Then why don't ye answer my questions in my previous post?

Perhaps then I'll understand what you are saying.

[AUFC90]

They don't expect to get to Manchester and Leeds before 2035. A Chinese firm have offered to do it in 5 years for less money, they've got all the plant and machinery ready to go. They'd speed it up by building in multiple stages simultaneously. It would be mad not to at least look at their competitive advantage instead of seeing it as damaging to National pride.

Bit of daft mentality especially as they're fine with the Chinese building their nuclear power stations.

[AUFC90]

Still don't understand the desperation of some yes voters to have some sort of left leaning Labour government in Westminster for maybe 5 years like they'll somehow change the direction of travel of the sinking ship. They're totally irrelevant up here as far as I'm concerned. Wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them and about 80% of the Scottish electorate agree with me.
Do people like Panda genuinely believe that the likes of Keir Starmer is going to radically change anything ? Westminster is fucked as far as I'm concerned and Scottish Independence IS the most important thing for the future of this country. Not what useless halfwit gets a shot at a job for a few years.