What is the point of Labour ?

[pandarilla]

If the Minnesota police were trained by any other country then they would not have said anything.

It was pretty clear what the agenda is - George Floyd was killed by racist police, racist police were trained by Israel, therefore Israel supports racist police.

It's simplistic pish of the worst kind.

Do you think the article was anti semitic?

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

If the Minnesota police were trained by any other country then they would not have said anything.

It was pretty clear what the agenda is - George Floyd was killed by racist police, racist police were trained by Israel, therefore Israel supports racist police.

It's simplistic pish of the worst kind.
 

The fact that there's clear photographic evidence of Israeli police and army using that technique makes it relevant, along with the militarisation of American police forces. The article was pointing out that it's not only American police who behave badly.

Edited June 28, 2020 by welshbairn

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Do you think the article was anti semitic?

It's along the lines of those who use the line "All lives matter" - the term in itself is not racist but is used by racists to divert. There is an element of this going on here - I think Long Bailey is not a racist herself but more like those who unwittingly aid racists or are used by racists.

If you are going to attack Israel there are a lot better arguments than this spurious piece of shit.

[NotThePars]

11 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Maybe I'm being too charitable but I thought the point was more the militarisation of attitudes and procedures of the American police. For understandable reasons there aren't that many places that offer this type of training that are also friendly to Americans.

If it's just the bad Jews made the nice policeman racist and brutal then yeah that's totally out of order.

I had a wee google about the subject in general and have to say it was hard to find coverage that didn't come from sources that would naturally be hostile to Israeli policy so it's hard to know. There was some stuff in Haaretz but no single thoroughly researched article about what kind of training American police get from overseas sources.

Wasn't the general point about the internationalisation of policing supposedly violent populations? if there's no link to be made then I guess the police forces in America should stop having seminars with Israeli secret services on police tactics and the Ferguson activists probably shouldn't be linking up with Palestinians.

 

In other news I've seen that Skawkbox have reported Sir Keir for anti-semitism as he's conflated the actions of Israel with Jewish people in general lol

[pandarilla]

It's along the lines of those who use the line "All lives matter" - the term in itself is not racist but is used by racists to divert. There is an element of this going on here - I think Long Bailey is not a racist herself but more like those who unwittingly aid racists or are used by racists.

If you are going to attack Israel there are a lot better arguments than this spurious piece of shit.

I don't think it's anywhere close to that analogy.

The 'all lives matter' chat is spectacularly missing the basic context of the issue.

This was making a legitimate point of comparison (since the seminars and training clearly do go on - and Israeli forces have used that tactic in Palestine).

I think it's a factual error and a clear retraction of that detail is more than sufficient.

[Blue-Toon]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/keir-starmer-overtakes-boris-johnson-as-publics-preferred-choice-for-prime-minister-new-poll-shows?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[pandarilla]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/keir-starmer-overtakes-boris-johnson-as-publics-preferred-choice-for-prime-minister-new-poll-shows?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

There's no doubting that starmer is paying the media game.

I find it incredibly depressing how co-ordinated it all is. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a connection between this news being released the day after he's seen to be taking 'decisive leadership'.

[Gordon EF]

6 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

It's along the lines of those who use the line "All lives matter" - the term in itself is not racist but is used by racists to divert. There is an element of this going on here - I think Long Bailey is not a racist herself but more like those who unwittingly aid racists or are used by racists.

If you are going to attack Israel there are a lot better arguments than this spurious piece of shit.

Wasn't it not so much attacking the IDF as saying that maybe the Minneapolis police department shouldn't be getting trained by the IDF?

[Gordon EF]

24 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Absent independence he still remains the least bad option as an alternative to tories, so it's quite something to already be at this stage before brexit really takes a bite out of the government's popularity. I'm pretty sure this is the strongest predictor of which party wins an election normally. Expect some gerrymandering I guess.

What about the Lib Dems?

Spoiler

 

[sophia]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

There's no doubting that starmer is paying the media game.

I find it incredibly depressing how co-ordinated it all is. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a connection between this news being released the day after he's seen to be taking 'decisive leadership'.

Sorry, pandarilla, I respect your paternal loyalty but I see no benefit in fussing over the prospect of a socialist or even left leaning administration in England any time soon.

The left was rejected when Healey defeated Benn nearly forty years ago and I can see no change in the mood of the majority.

Corbyn may have won Glastonbury but he lost Grimbsy and as he did he obviously spent too much time with Gaza on his mind.

That others in his circle have similar studenty obsessions only serves to betray a spectacular lack of focus and that is a matter of regret for those of us who long for a coherent challenge to the roguery of the right. 

[dorlomin]

8 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

. Predominantly white American police

America is predominantly white. 

Quote

recruiting PTSD suffering veterans

I suffer from PTSD. 

Its a reaction to trauma. Often in childhood. 

In the name of suffering f**k how what kind of shitbag are you to link a form of depression to police violence. 

Now things change, glove come off. 

Quote

are likely to view black neighbourhoods as hostile territory in a way that would make training from Israeli forces that make incursions into the remaining Palestinian bits of the West Bank

You are a fantasist. 

By the way an utter scum bag at that. 

You really think PTSD means you walk through a town center and think you are back in "Nam" or some such. Where did you get your Ph.D in psychology from? Oh wait, this is all bullshit you have pulled from your arse to use mental health issues you have zero clue about to point score about some total non event in UK politics on twitter. 

Each person experiences their psychology for themselves. They are a sum of good and bad experiences that subconsciously push their reaction to events. But if an event "triggers" a memory of an old trauma they are likely to become despondent, depressed and generally withdrawn. Not some kind of Rambo killbot.  The idea that a person with past emotional trauma turns into a mega racist because they are in a low income community is like something from 1960s pop culture. 

Your politics is devoid of compassion. 

Its full of finger pointing, blame and smug certainty. 

You threw a psychological problem into the mix not because you understood it. Not because you had solid evidence for it being part of the issues, not because it added to our understanding of perpetrators, victims or circumstances of police violence: you did it to stigmatise without understanding. 

 

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

9 hours ago, sophia said:

Sorry, pandarilla, I respect your paternal loyalty but I see no benefit in fussing over the prospect of a socialist or even left leaning administration in England any time soon.

The left was rejected when Healey defeated Benn nearly forty years ago and I can see no change in the mood of the majority.

Corbyn may have won Glastonbury but he lost Grimbsy and as he did he obviously spent too much time with Gaza on his mind.

That others in his circle have similar studenty obsessions only serves to betray a spectacular lack of focus and that is a matter of regret for those of us who long for a coherent challenge to the roguery of the right. 

This.

I also respect Pandarilla's loyalty to the socialist cause, but it's not going to happen. The UK is not, and hasn't been for generations, a country that supports socialism.  Outside the Blair administration we've only had 3 majority Labour governments in the last 120 years, with probably the last 'true socialist' being Atlee right after the war. 

Labour supporters need to look at, and analyse that fact. 

To think that Corbyn could every become PM was utter fantasy, and by handing the leadership to Corbyn back by the Red nutters of Momentum, Labour was committing electoral suicide. 

If Labour want to get close to forming a government again in the next 10 years, they have to centralise. There are a lot of voters out there who are not attracted to the Tories but who were put off the 'extremism' of Labour because of Corbyn and the shadows behind him. 

[vikingTON]

12 hours ago, pandarilla said:

There's no doubting that starmer is paying the media game.

I find it incredibly depressing how co-ordinated it all is. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a connection between this news being released the day after he's seen to be taking 'decisive leadership'.

What, you mean a poll commissioned by The Observer having its results published every Sunday? It's pretty obvious what 'the connection' is to its timing and it's not some Bilderberg-Blairite conspiracy m8.

[Wee Willie]

12 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Absent independence he still remains the least bad option as an alternative to tories, so it's quite something to already be at this stage before brexit really takes a bite out of the government's popularity. I'm pretty sure this is the strongest predictor of which party wins an election normally. Expect some gerrymandering I guess.

He's surely the only option.

But both Labour and the Tories support Trident in Scottish waters.

And both Labour and the Tories support Scotland paying for English projects.

IF Labour were to form a UK government what benefit do you see for Scotland?

[BFTD]

5 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Well the most urgent one would be urgent rolling back of the benefits system to get rid of universal credit. After that I think they'd strike a much more pragmatic tone with the EU and get us to some kind of deal across affected sectors. Higher education & associated research in Scotland is going to be badly affected (already is according to some pals) by losing out on EU grant money. I think both of those are pretty important and likely to improve significantly with a Labour government.

That sounds more like long-term Tory policy to me.

(I'm misunderstanding you for comic effect. Lolzers.)

[Detournement]

11 hours ago, dorlomin said:

 

Now things change, glove come off. 

You are a fantasist. 

By the way an utter scum bag at that. 

 

Lol

[Benjamin_Nevis]

A fine effort from Dorlomin there, but frankly reaching the dizzy heights of the post-2015 Election seethefest is a high fucking bar.

[welshbairn]

Have to say that somebody who will remain nameless here's posting style makes you think he's getting flashbacks from a Da Nang firefight.

[pandarilla]

This.
I also respect Pandarilla's loyalty to the socialist cause, but it's not going to happen. The UK is not, and hasn't been for generations, a country that supports socialism.  Outside the Blair administration we've only had 3 majority Labour governments in the last 120 years, with probably the last 'true socialist' being Atlee right after the war. 
Labour supporters need to look at, and analyse that fact. 
To think that Corbyn could every become PM was utter fantasy, and by handing the leadership to Corbyn back by the Red nutters of Momentum, Labour was committing electoral suicide. 
If Labour want to get close to forming a government again in the next 10 years, they have to centralise. There are a lot of voters out there who are not attracted to the Tories but who were put off the 'extremism' of Labour because of Corbyn and the shadows behind him. 

For me this issue isn't about the labour party at all - it's more a case of right vs wrong.

An orchestrated campaign is using the issue of anti semitism to dismiss left wing voices, and force people out of positions of authority - putting them and their ideas 'back in their box'.

It could be any party and i would feel the same.

This horrendous dilution of anti semitism actually let's genuine anti semites off the hook.

What, you mean a poll commissioned by The Observer having its results published every Sunday? It's pretty obvious what 'the connection' is to its timing and it's not some Bilderberg-Blairite conspiracy m8.

Fair enough, and I'll hold my hand up to getting a bit carried away.

I just saw the headline in the guardian about polling data and didn't read the details.

Surely you'd accept that quite often parties hold back stories (particularly if it's their polling) to maximise the impact of their release? That's been going on for donkeys, and i got suspicious that starmer is hailed as a decisive leader on Friday and Saturday and then positive polling follows the next day.

The media campaign that uses anti semitism against the left makes people more suspicious of news. They lose trust.

[NotThePars]

3 hours ago, Bob Mahelp said:

 

To think that Corbyn could every become PM was utter fantasy