What is the point of Labour ?

[Baxter Parp]

Did you even read what I posted. It will benefit Scotland. This is why the SNP support it. Of course they've said they'd like it connecting Glasgow and Edinburgh but even without this it will benefit the Scottish economy.

It will only benefit Scotland if it reaches Scotland, otherwise it's a net loss.

[jamamafegan]

Think of HS2 as a means to get more people moved up and down the country rather than a train that can get 1 person to Manchester 40 minutes faster. Every day thousands of people will use it and if there's more capacity then there's more economic activity stimulated away from London. If more of that moves north there's a residual benefit to places that are not on the HS2 network but nonetheless connected to it. Economic modelling suggests that's a good thing for both England and Scotland. And the up-front cost of HS2 sounds eye watering but it's not a case of writing a cheque for however many tens of billions of quid it is now costing, this is costs spread over quite a few years. It's a few billion quid a year which compared to the 300 billion the UK government will have spent on Covid response this year, isn't really that much.

Have to say I’m quite surprised that you seem to support HS2!

To me it’s nothing but an incredibly destructive vanity project with a main aim of getting people down to London much faster. The destruction of irreplaceable ancient woodland and beautiful countryside all to get people from Leeds to London, what, 30 minutes quicker? £87 billion its going to cost, and will no doubt rise given the current climate.

In comparison the A9 duelling is budgeted at £3 billion. I’m not sure how much Scotland are contributing to HS2 but I’m willing to bet that there’s hundreds of other ways the money could be spent to benefit our economy without having to destroy the countryside and people’s livelihoods - all to get people down to that shithole of a Tory infested city.

[jamamafegan]

Also: it may seem hypocritical of me to say that considering the A9 duelling will also remove valuable countryside and peoples roadside homes and farms - the difference is the road already exists, it should have been duelled years ago, it’s currently one of the most dangerous roads in the UK and it will greatly benefit the north of Scotland.

[GTG_03]

37 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Did you even read what I posted. It will benefit Scotland. This is why the SNP support it. Of course they've said they'd like it connecting Glasgow and Edinburgh but even without this it will benefit the Scottish economy.

It really won't. The SNP are supportive of it if it actually goes to Scotland. If it doesn't(it wont) then it will be economically damaging to Scotland.

 

[welshbairn]

18 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

Also: it may seem hypocritical of me to say that considering the A9 duelling will also remove valuable countryside and peoples roadside homes and farms - the difference is the road already exists, it should have been duelled years ago, it’s currently one of the most dangerous roads in the UK and it will greatly benefit the north of Scotland.

Much improved since the average speed cameras were put in, it's the A82 where all the deaths are now.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

Think of HS2 as a means to get more people moved up and down the country rather than a train that can get 1 person to Manchester 40 minutes faster. Every day thousands of people will use it and if there's more capacity then there's more economic activity stimulated away from London. If more of that moves north there's a residual benefit to places that are not on the HS2 network but nonetheless connected to it. Economic modelling suggests that's a good thing for both England and Scotland. And the up-front cost of HS2 sounds eye watering but it's not a case of writing a cheque for however many tens of billions of quid it is now costing, this is costs spread over quite a few years. It's a few billion quid a year which compared to the 300 billion the UK government will have spent on Covid response this year, isn't really that much.

They don't expect to get to Manchester and Leeds before 2035. A Chinese firm have offered to do it in 5 years for less money, they've got all the plant and machinery ready to go. They'd speed it up by building in multiple stages simultaneously. It would be mad not to at least look at their competitive advantage instead of seeing it as damaging to National pride.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

For a supposedly savvy lawyer this has been a gross over-reaction by Starmer in what is surely a very crude attempt to smother any criticism from the usual suspects. The very fact that the US police are being tutored by their Israeli equivalent should in itself ring alarm bells in a Labour leader and there doesn't need to be a great leap made to consider and compare the possible treatment of Palestinians and Black Americans respectively. That probably marks me down as a raging anti-Semite, but that is in the gift of others and I'll continue to call things as I see them.

[pandarilla]

 

Maybe the party splitting badly would be a good thing in the long run.

They tried it for decades and died in electoral oblivion. 
About all they ever got for their endless efforts was a couple of wins by Galloway\Yaqoob's Respect.
Without the Labour brand name they are nothing. Seethe away in the forgotten corners of the internet. No one cares. 
If enough members left then maybe the shell that was left (so to speak, although they're far from that) would realise that they're nowhere near winning an election from a centre right platform, trying to pretend to be left wing.

He could've handled this so much better, with genuine dialogue, and agreement from the moderates on both sides.

But he's just fucked it.

[vikingTON]

15 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

If the Swiss Guard used this technique and trained with the American police, would it be anti Catholic to suggest so ?

Literally every part of that analogy doesn't make sense, which is a bit of an accomplishment in itself tbh. 

7 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

 The very fact that the US police are being tutored by their Israeli equivalent should in itself ring alarm bells in a Labour leader 

Lol wut

That's got absolutely f**k all to do with the leader of the UK Labour party and zero relevance to the electorate as well. 

I agree that this is chiefly a cynical ploy to empty L-B from the shadow cabinet, which any halfway competent politician would do given that she is i) fucking useless and ii) stood for an opposing faction in the leadership ballot that Starmer won. The only question worth considering is whether Starmer's position is currently strong enough to prise the Mumbleclown brigades out of power within that party; it's certainly easier for his faction to do that while holding that party's leadership but could still easily backfire on him.

[pandarilla]

Can you guys take the hs2 debate to the proper thread?

In saying that, I'm going to make a slightly tenuous link why a centrist right Labour party is pretty much worthless.

One of the main news stories today is the horrific case 2 years ago where a mentally ill young man threw a completely innocent 6 year old boy 100ft of the top floor of the tate modern in London.

The young man predicted he would do this to his carers a year before he did it. But the care givers in this case is a private company and when you put profit above people then corners are cut and tragic mistakes like this are more likely.

These are the types of neoliberal policies that new labour and the tories pretty much both support.

It's a fucking sickening case and it should've been prevented.

[Wee Willie]

2 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Think of HS2 as a means to get more people moved up and down the country rather than a train that can get 1 person to Manchester 40 minutes faster. Every day thousands of people will use it and if there's more capacity then there's more economic activity stimulated away from London. If more of that moves north there's a residual benefit to places that are not on the HS2 network but nonetheless connected to it. Economic modelling suggests that's a good thing for both England and Scotland. And the up-front cost of HS2 sounds eye watering but it's not a case of writing a cheque for however many tens of billions of quid it is now costing, this is costs spread over quite a few years. It's a few billion quid a year which compared to the 300 billion the UK government will have spent on Covid response this year, isn't really that much.

Do you mean the country (England)?

You said the SNP were in favour of HS2. Are they in favour of Scotland paying a share or are they easy oasy about it provided England pay all the costs?

2 hours ago, AUFC90 said:

2 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Think of HS2 as a means to get more people moved up and down the country rather than a train that can get 1 person to Manchester 40 minutes faster. Every day thousands of people will use it and if there's more capacity then there's more economic activity stimulated away from London. If more of that moves north there's a residual benefit to places that are not on the HS2 network but nonetheless connected to it. Economic modelling suggests that's a good thing for both England and Scotland. And the up-front cost of HS2 sounds eye watering but it's not a case of writing a cheque for however many tens of billions of quid it is now costing, this is costs spread over quite a few years. It's a few billion quid a year which compared to the 300 billion the UK government will have spent on Covid response this year, isn't really that much.

Still doesn't change the fact Scotland pays a population of share of bullshit that doesn't benefit them then pays a population share of the interest on the debt accrued on said bullshit. I await our cheque for 90% of the cost of the Forth bridge with baited breath.

What he says

1 hour ago, Baxter Parp said:

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

Did you even read what I posted. It will benefit Scotland. This is why the SNP support it. Of course they've said they'd like it connecting Glasgow and Edinburgh but even without this it will benefit the Scottish economy.

It will only benefit Scotland if it reaches Scotland, otherwise it's a net loss.

Also what he says

1 hour ago, jamamafegan said:

 

Have to say I’m quite surprised that you seem to support HS2!

To me it’s nothing but an incredibly destructive vanity project with a main aim of getting people down to London much faster. The destruction of irreplaceable ancient woodland and beautiful countryside all to get people from Leeds to London, what, 30 minutes quicker? £87 billion its going to cost, and will no doubt rise given the current climate.

In comparison the A9 duelling is budgeted at £3 billion. I’m not sure how much Scotland are contributing to HS2 but I’m willing to bet that there’s hundreds of other ways the money could be spent to benefit our economy without having to destroy the countryside and people’s livelihoods - all to get people down to that shithole of a Tory infested city.

 

and what he says

2 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Without wishing to be excessively blunt, in order of effectiveness in minimising climate impacts of travel up and down the UK, the options are: kill a lot of people, lay on trains, lay on flights. Understandably nobody is much keen on #1 so your options are #2 or #3. As unhappy as I'm sure people who have property on the proposed train line are (such as ex Green Party Leader Natalie Bennett), it is definitely the least-worst of those two options.

The depiction of it as silly because it only shaves of this much time on a single journey is looking at it through the wrong end of the telescope. I'm pulling numbers out my arse for this but it's just to illustrate the point: if at present we can do 10 trains a day between London and Leeds then that's 3650 trains a year ignoring holidays etc. If each train can carry 500 people that's 1.8 million passengers a year. If you make each train journey 30 minutes quicker then that's now about 11 and a half trains a day or ~4200 trains a year or 2.1 million passengers. That's an awful lot of extra people not in cars or planes.

And the Leeds bit of the line is going to open around 2040, so that's £87billion over 20 years which is not even £5 billion a year. If it's being paid for with 20 year government bonds that yield about 0.5%, then the whole economy only needs to grow at parity for that to be effectively free money & covid aside it more or less does this. If you're building something that will increase economic activity then it further underwrites whatever the next big infrastructure project.

I'm not saying do this and don't dual the A9 or whatever I'm just trying to illustrate that big total cost numbers are a red herring and as far as climate goes if the population and economy is going to go there really is no other option.

You're referring to the UK while I am hoping for an independent Scotland. Is there no a difference?

If Scotland has to pay her share then why does the UK government no pay for the upgrading of the A9 so that England can pay her share. Or is it only one way?

[Wee Willie]

3 hours ago, dorlomin said:

Labour clearing out the dead wood. 

A kerfuffle that will be forgotten in a week, other than by the crank activists that nurse grievances for decades anyway. But from now on anyone in a shadow cabinet position will double check the credibility of claims before retweeting them instead of the braindead clowns leaving open goals for the Tory party to make hay with. 

Some positive press during the dead air of a long summer. But its only an incidental positive. 

Perhaps we are seeing the slow death of the shitposting and populism of the past few years. Something we can all support. 

In Scotland?

28 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

They tried it for decades and died in electoral oblivion. 
About all they ever got for their endless efforts was a couple of wins by Galloway\Yaqoob's Respect.
Without the Labour brand name they are nothing. Seethe away in the forgotten corners of the internet. No one cares. 
If enough members left then maybe the shell that was left (so to speak, although they're far from that) would realise that they're nowhere near winning an election from a centre right platform, trying to pretend to be left wing.

He could've handled this so much better, with genuine dialogue, and agreement from the moderates on both sides.

But he's just fucked it.

Are you referring to Scotland or the rest of the UK

6 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Can you guys take the hs2 debate to the proper thread?

In saying that, I'm going to make a slightly tenuous link why a centrist right Labour party is pretty much worthless.

One of the main news stories today is the horrific case 2 years ago where a mentally ill young man threw a completely innocent 6 year old boy 100ft of the top floor of the tate modern in London.

The young man predicted he would do this to his carers a year before he did it. But the care givers in this case is a private company and when you put profit above people then corners are cut and tragic mistakes like this are more likely.

These are the types of neoliberal policies that new labour and the tories pretty much both support.

It's a fucking sickening case and it should've been prevented.

In other words they are twa cheeks o' the same arse. They both support Trident in Scottish waters and both support Scotland paying a share of expensive English projects.

This morning Starmer said that he supports the Scottish Labour party policy of no referendum on Independence. And that's the same policy as the Tories.

Democratic and Socialist my arse!

[John Lambies Doos]

You must fucking love a tory government then, eh?

Loving the way it's trundling towards our independence.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Literally every part of that analogy doesn't make sense, which is a bit of an accomplishment in itself tbh. 

Lol wut

That's got absolutely f**k all to do with the leader of the UK Labour party and zero relevance to the electorate as well. 

I agree that this is chiefly a cynical ploy to empty L-B from the shadow cabinet, which any halfway competent politician would do given that she is i) fucking useless and ii) stood for an opposing faction in the leadership ballot that Starmer won. The only question worth considering is whether Starmer's position is currently strong enough to prise the Mumbleclown brigades out of power within that party; it's certainly easier for his faction to do that while holding that party's leadership but could still easily backfire on him.

So party leaders or the electorate in this country aren't expected to have any sort of view or opinion on world affairs, what a bizarre proposition.  And of course history tells us that you are wrong, as events in the US very often go to have a direct bearing in the UK.  Brexit will act to reinforce that position.

And a wee friendly word.....you can be quite an astute  poster, just drop the arrogant tone, it's become tedious.

[pandarilla]

Willie you need to try and take a wee step away from making absolutely everything about Scottish independence.

Most folk on here are independence supporters - but there are genuine disagreements about how to go about achieving this, and it's also not the main priority for everyone.

You quoted loads of posts and tried to link them to Scotland - when folk are discussing other issues.

[John Lambies Doos]

Willie you need to try and take a wee step away from making absolutely everything about Scottish independence.

Most folk on here are independence supporters - but there are genuine disagreements about how to go about achieving this, and it's also not the main priority for everyone.

You quoted loads of posts and tried to link them to Scotland - when folk are discussing other issues.

Pandarilla. tbh I couldn't give a flying f**k about the UK or Scottish Labour party. They burnt their bridges long ago. Starmer is just to the new fucking Blair. Get them to f**k and the Torys. England deserves what it gets. I want independence, so anything that furthers this is good for me

[vikingTON]

37 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

So party leaders or the electorate in this country aren't expected to have any sort of view or opinion on world affairs, what a bizarre proposition.  And of course history tells us that you are wrong, as events in the US very often go to have a direct bearing in the UK.  Brexit will act to reinforce that position.

And a wee friendly word.....you can be quite an astute  poster, just drop the arrogant tone, it's become tedious.

It's absolutely irrelevant to the UK Labour Party leader whether the Minneapolis PD were trained with the assistance of Israeli police, or Saudi police, or Japanese police. Police forces share techniques, equipment and 'best policy' on a transnational basis all the time. The idea that it ought to 'send alarm bells ringing in a Labour leader' because Israeli police were doing so thousands of miles away is just nonsense. As is the pathetic claim that Brexit is suddenly going to lead to Israeli police tactics being foisted on the UK as part of some transatlantic trade deal. Not everything is actually directly related to each other. 

Your tone trolling advice on how to become be a better poster has been filed in the bin as well btw. People have been trying that trick for more than a decade and it still doesn't make your arguments stack up.

[pandarilla]

Pandarilla. tbh I couldn't give a flying f**k about the UK or Scottish Labour party. They burnt their bridges long ago. Starmer is just to the new fucking Blair. Get them to f**k and the Torys. England deserves what it gets. I want independence, so anything that furthers this is good for me

I can't really disagree with the sentiment - but I'm not entirely sure it furthers the independence cause that much. There are far bigger factors that will make it or break for the next referendum, and a Labour govt in wm would improve things considerably up here.

 

 

Edited to add that my initial post wasn't aimed at you, it's wee willie that i feel links everything to independence.

[pandarilla]

It's absolutely irrelevant to the UK Labour Party leader whether the Minneapolis PD were trained with the assistance of Israeli police, or Saudi police, or Japanese police. Police forces share techniques, equipment and 'best policy' on a transnational basis all the time. The idea that it ought to 'send alarm bells ringing in a Labour leader' because Israeli police were doing so thousands of miles away is just nonsense. As is the pathetic claim that Brexit is suddenly going to lead to Israeli police tactics being foisted on the UK as part of some transatlantic trade deal. Not everything is actually directly related to each other. 

Your tone trolling advice on how to become be a better poster has been filed in the bin as well btw. People have been trying that trick for more than a decade and it still doesn't make your arguments stack up.

That last sentence really is quite telling.

 

"lots of people keep telling me I'm a c**t but i just ignore them"

 

 

 

Anyway, do you think the maxine peak article was anti semitic?

 

 

[BucksburnDandy]

What's your view on Labour and Trident in Scottish waters?
They've never changed their position on that.
And I've never heard or seen anything from UK or Scottish Labour objecting to Scotland paying a share of HS2 or other expensive English projects.

I imagine he disagrees but party politics always involves a compromise. You’re a natural SNP voter but do you agree with their retention of the monarchy and membership of NATO?

I did say I was a natural Labour voter who due to their anti independence stance can't vote for them. Probably should have added traditional Labour and not a New Labour voter.

Personally dead against Trident which is a black mark against Labour but equally I'm a republican who would prefer not to be in Nato.

Ultimately the SNP are a means to the end for me in terms of Westminster and Holyrood constituency votes where they are the only show in town. But my list vote will go Green, like in 2016, as I tend to agree with more of their policies generally than those of the SNP and it has the added potential benefit of increased pro independence list seats, particularly moving to the Highland list area.