What is the point of Labour ?

[Detournement]

9 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

It has to be. There isn't an alternative. Look at America for instance. Win social media, win the election. You're correct in that any Leftist party will always have an uphill battle to win. But they have to do it anyway.

You are missing the fact that Obama had Eric Schmidt and Google behind him and Trump had Robert Mercer who has massive amounts of behavioral data on all American voters.

They don't win via posting on social media. They win due to the support of billionaires who can manipulate voters via social media. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Detournement

[ICTJohnboy]

2 hours ago, doulikefish said:

Stamer win means bad news for the snpeeeee in jockoland headlines  incoming 

 

It's not going to make a blind bit of difference to the 

Quote

" snpeeeee in jockoland"

 

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

They can't go neutral on Indy. It would be poison in England, and the next election will be decided here not in Scotland.

I'm neither pro nor anti-independence. Just don't see how any of the UK-wide parties can be seen as anything other than pro-Union at the moment, if they want to win.

It’s bizarre, isn’t it? The right wing in England are all about political independence and taking back control, until it comes to countries they think they own. They should never even think about political independence or taking back control. The right of England appear to hate political unions, except for the ones in which London holds the whip hand over others. The war cry might as well be, “we don’t accept being ruled by other countries; we RULE other countries!”.

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

It's not going to make a blind bit of difference to the 

 

It’s not going to make a blind bit of difference anywhere else in the UK. Starmer might be more acceptable to the Home Counties, but they’re not going to vote for even a centre-right Labour party until they get tired of the Tories (and that ennui will take about fifteen-twenty years to set in, depending on how complacent the Tories get). 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Every single time Labour have elected a new leader, either in Scotland or UK wide, we've heard endlessly how this "spells disaster for the SNP". Every single one of them has been utterly bitch-slapped repeatedly until being replaced by another inept fucking no-mark. Starmer will be no different.

[ICTJohnboy]

10 minutes ago, Antlion said:

It’s bizarre, isn’t it? The right wing in England are all about political independence and taking back control, until it comes to countries they think they own. They should never even think about political independence or taking back control. The right of England appear to hate political unions, except for the ones in which London holds the whip hand over others. The war cry might as well be, “we don’t accept being ruled by other countries; we RULE other countries!”.

 

That's it in a nutshell - there really are people in England who think that way. Then they have temerity to say that English, Scots and Welsh are all one and the same. They never consider N.Ireland - they just seem to regard them as Irish, and are therefore terrorists.

[GordonS]

17 minutes ago, Antlion said:

It’s not going to make a blind bit of difference anywhere else in the UK. Starmer might be more acceptable to the Home Counties, but they’re not going to vote for even a centre-right Labour party until they get tired of the Tories (and that ennui will take about fifteen-twenty years to set in, depending on how complacent the Tories get). 

Corbyn was heinously unpopular in the north of England, including among long-term Labour supporters. 

[Detournement]

8 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Corbyn was heinously unpopular in the north of England, including among long-term Labour supporters. 

Labour still have the majority of seats in the North of England and Corbyn had huge rallies there. 2017 proved his popularity.

I'd say blocking Brexit was hugely unpopular. 

[DrewDon]

I was impressed by how Starmer ran his campaign - technically streets ahead of Long-Bailey and Nandy. He has done a very good job of not really upsetting anybody, but that will likely change with his Shadow Cabinet appointments. When you build the breadth of support he has within a broadly pro-Corbyn membership, which is impressive, it's going to be nearly impossible not to piss off some people who supported you with your first big decisions. 

[Detournement]

He had a huge amount of money to spend that is so far unaccounted for so it's not a shock that his campaign looked slick. 

The say nothing and let people project their desires tactic onto you usually doesn't work for long. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Detournement

[Antlion]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

He had a huge amount of money to spend that is so far unaccounted for so it's not a shock that his campaign looked slick. 

The say nothing and let people project their desires tactic onto you usually doesn't work for long. 

Unless you have a royal title.

[BB_Bino]

Corbyn was heinously unpopular in the north of England, including among long-term Labour supporters. 

Na that’s not true. Corbyn polled well in the North of England throughout his run and held many rallies in the North of England and they were always well attended, in fact there was a real hero worshipping of him in the north of England until the brexit debacle. That really was his undoing in the North of England and ultimately he was between a rock and a hard place because he campaigned to leave the EU throughout his political career, yet it was Labour’s stance to remain and really, they had no plan going into the last election, a lot of the constituencies that he represented simply voted last time round, to “get Brexit done”.

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 hours ago, Antlion said:

It’s bizarre, isn’t it? The right wing in England are all about political independence and taking back control, until it comes to countries they think they own. They should never even think about political independence or taking back control. The right of England appear to hate political unions, except for the ones in which London holds the whip hand over others. The war cry might as well be, “we don’t accept being ruled by other countries; we RULE other countries!”.

That's the old style Conservatives.

Truth is the Brexit/New Right type voters would happily ditch Scotland.  They see us much the same way as they viewed Europe.  Dark forces conspiring against them while siphoning off English taxes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If and when Scotland leaves the Union it be because we are 'encouraged to leave' if not plain ejected from it.  It won't be entirely our own choice.  Exactly the same way that joining it wasn't.

After the last referendum I have absolutely no confidence whatsoever in this country to do what's right by it.  That's why despite being pro independence I am in no hurry to have a 2nd referendum.  There is absolutely nothing to indicate the result would be any different and a second referendum defeat would completely kill independence off for who knows how long.

SNP poll numbers have stalled and its hard to see them going up much more.  Unless one of the other major parties comes out as pro independence you can't see much more than a status quo.  The only people increasing their vote is going to be the Conservatives. 

They have increased their vote two fold in my constituency, one which formerly held Ravenscraig steelworks and was always extremely hostile to the Conservatives.  To the younger generation the 80's are ancient history and left wing ideas are, in my opinion, going to be in retreat as the generations move forward, just the same way as old style Conservatism is on it's last legs now. 

Society is entirely focused on personal gain, wealth, property, lifestyle.  I can't see the political climate going any other way long term. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Ya Bezzer!

[DublinMagyar]

Is Sir Stamer going to close the lords ? [emoji23]

Right after home rule for Scotland

[JamieThomas]

Can confirm that having the only two viable options as a right wing party and a centre right party is a fantastic way to run things.

[Fullerene]

33 minutes ago, BB_Bino said:

 

Na that’s not true. Corbyn polled well in the North of England throughout his run and held many rallies in the North of England and they were always well attended, in fact there was a real hero worshipping of him in the north of England until the brexit debacle. That really was his undoing in the North of England and ultimately he was between a rock and a hard place because he campaigned to leave the EU throughout his political career, yet it was Labour’s stance to remain and really, they had no plan going into the last election, a lot of the constituencies that he represented simply voted last time round, to “get Brexit done”.

 

Corbyn may have polled well and been very popular with the people who attended his rallies but there was a lot of ABC voters out there (anyone-but-Corbyn).

They might even have thought his heart was in the right place but he would still have been a disastrous Prime Minister.

His high point was getting a close second place in 2017 when the Tories were falling over themselves to lose the election - dementia tax and all that.

Yes.  Opposing Brexit was a mess.  They should have been doing that more vigorously at the EU referendum in 2016 but good old Captain Dither couldn't convince anyone whether he was personally in favour of the EU or not.

Time and again he seem to suggest he was happy to be Leader of the Opposition and could change government policy from that position.  No need to become the government.  Win the argument without clearing that final hurdle.  Bollocks.

[Detournement]

18 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

That's the old style Conservatives.

Truth is the Brexit/New Right type voters would happily ditch Scotland.  They see us much the same way as they viewed Europe.  Dark forces conspiring against them while siphoning off English taxes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If and when Scotland leaves the Union it be because we are 'encouraged to leave' if not plain ejected from it.  It won't be entirely our own choice.  Exactly the same way that joining it wasn't.

Scotland is too rich in natural resources for the UK to give it up willingly.

 

 

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, Detournement said:

Labour still have the majority of seats in the North of England and Corbyn had huge rallies there. 2017 proved his popularity.

I'd say blocking Brexit was hugely unpopular. 

Pure delusion.

Look at the fall in their votes, the seats they lost for the very first time, the polling data and the focus group results. Corbyn was more unpopular in the north of England than Johnson. That shouldn't have been possible.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, BB_Bino said:

 

Na that’s not true. Corbyn polled well in the North of England throughout his run and held many rallies in the North of England and they were always well attended, in fact there was a real hero worshipping of him in the north of England until the brexit debacle. That really was his undoing in the North of England and ultimately he was between a rock and a hard place because he campaigned to leave the EU throughout his political career, yet it was Labour’s stance to remain and really, they had no plan going into the last election, a lot of the constituencies that he represented simply voted last time round, to “get Brexit done”.

 

It is true. Google the data - polling, favourability and focus groups.

Attendance at rallies is a laughably bad way to assess popularity.

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

It is true. Google the data - polling, favourability and focus groups.

Attendance at rallies is a laughably bad way to assess popularity.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why Salmond is guilty due to Moorov!

Something definitely changed between 2017 and 2019 but it wasn't Corbyn.