What is the point of Labour ?

[BerwickMad]

 
Why do you keep suggesting it's actually Matt, Len, Ian or John who are in control?

Because it clearly is. She comes across fairly well when at hustings and in interviews, then all of a sudden you can tell when the ‘tactics’ start. Similar kind tactics you see on Zarbs twitter feed. It’s so obvious when she’s calling the others out because it doesn’t come natural to her.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Long-Bailey has got my vote, with Richard Burgon being my choice for deputy. I also have a lot of time for Dawn Butler and especially Angela Rayner, but Burgon is a deceptively angry bugger who absolutely will walk the walk. Both he and L-B were also unfailingly loyal to the leadership in public, rather than washing the party's dirty laundry in public.  Dawn and Anela will serve well whatever brief they are given

The media have already crowned Starmer, but it's not going to be that easy - not with the increased democratisation of the party and, especially, the reform of the NEC since the mass suspensions under that cúnt McNicol.

I think the memory (aided by much reposting of his resignation letter) of Starmer criticising and acting against the leader will come back to haunt him. His calls for Unity and to stop the factionalism seem hypocritical in the extreme when viewed with this in mind. Unite behind a man who tried to split the Party wide open? That'll be right. A failure to commit to eradication of University fees won't do much good catching all those "youthquake" votes, either!

Nandy? In a year's time, non-politics geeks won't be able to pick her out of a police line-up. A nice enough wee lassie, but her ambition is to have a media profile like Jess Philips (had) without actually upsetting anyone.

[scottsdad]

30 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

Long-Bailey has got my vote, with Richard Burgon being my choice for deputy. I also have a lot of time for Dawn Butler and especially Angela Rayner, but Burgon is a deceptively angry bugger who absolutely will walk the walk. Both he and L-B were also unfailingly loyal to the leadership in public, rather than washing the party's dirty laundry in public.  Dawn and Anela will serve well whatever brief they are given

The media have already crowned Starmer, but it's not going to be that easy - not with the increased democratisation of the party and, especially, the reform of the NEC since the mass suspensions under that cúnt McNicol.

I think the memory (aided by much reposting of his resignation letter) of Starmer criticising and acting against the leader will come back to haunt him. His calls for Unity and to stop the factionalism seem hypocritical in the extreme when viewed with this in mind. Unite behind a man who tried to split the Party wide open? That'll be right. A failure to commit to eradication of University fees won't do much good catching all those "youthquake" votes, either!

Nandy? In a year's time, non-politics geeks won't be able to pick her out of a police line-up. A nice enough wee lassie, but her ambition is to have a media profile like Jess Philips (had) without actually upsetting anyone.

Richard Burgon. I heard him on Radio 5 Live on Sunday and thought "this guy is utterly deluded. Who on earth could vote for him??" Looks like he has support from...somewhere.

His key messages on R5L:

• Corbyn wasn't the problem
• Whoever is leader should keep all of Corbyn's manifesto and policies
• Tony Blair lost Labour the 2019 election (yes, honestly)
• The Iraq War was the problem, as was being unclear on the Brexit policy
• Corbyn wasn't the problem (again)

R L-B and Burgon. Secretly, you must be a Tory. who else wants this dream team of dross?

[zidane's child]

Voted this morning on the new Labour leader. My selection was as follows;

1. Keir Starmer

2. Rebecca Long-Bailey

3. Lisa Nandy

[Fullerene]

2 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Richard Burgon. I heard him on Radio 5 Live on Sunday and thought "this guy is utterly deluded. Who on earth could vote for him??" Looks like he has support from...somewhere.

His key messages on R5L:

• Corbyn wasn't the problem
• Whoever is leader should keep all of Corbyn's manifesto and policies
• Tony Blair lost Labour the 2019 election (yes, honestly)
• The Iraq War was the problem, as was being unclear on the Brexit policy
• Corbyn wasn't the problem (again)

R L-B and Burgon. Secretly, you must be a Tory. who else wants this dream team of dross?

Labour lost in 2019 because of the Iraq War?  Jeremy Corbyn was leader of the "Stop the War" coalition.  Presumably "no, no, you need to really prove you were against it".

[scottsdad]

Burgon was unbelievable. He simply couldn't accept the reality of the 2019 election and insisted that "Tony Blair's damaging interventions with the Murdoch press" cost Labour the election, and that the "seeds were sown" for this defeat with the Iraq war. Since then Labour have not been trusted.

Braindead moron. Honestly I couldn't get my head around why he is in politics as he has no idea.

Labour lost the election because of....

• Corbyn being worse than useless at absolutely everything
• A manifesto that was just bonkers (free broadband? wtf?)
• "neutral" on a new Brexit referendum that nobody wants
• Loads of rich-bashing and nowt much else
• Corbyn, Corbyn, Corbyn. The man is kryptonite with the electorate. Couldn't even beat Theresa May, the worst PM in living memory.

[BerwickMad]

Burgon was unbelievable. He simply couldn't accept the reality of the 2019 election and insisted that "Tony Blair's damaging interventions with the Murdoch press" cost Labour the election, and that the "seeds were sown" for this defeat with the Iraq war. Since then Labour have not been trusted.
Braindead moron. Honestly I couldn't get my head around why he is in politics as he has no idea.
Labour lost the election because of....

• Corbyn being worse than useless at absolutely everything
• A manifesto that was just bonkers (free broadband? wtf?)
• "neutral" on a new Brexit referendum that nobody wants
• Loads of rich-bashing and nowt much else
• Corbyn, Corbyn, Corbyn. The man is kryptonite with the electorate. Couldn't even beat Theresa May, the worst PM in living memory.

I’d be worried if he was on my council, never mind my MP, and then one at the top of a party. The idiots idiot.

Quite a good Political Party podcast with Matt Forde and Long-Bailey today and she comes across very well just speaking honestly without her campaign team.

[Granny Danger]

4 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Burgon was unbelievable. He simply couldn't accept the reality of the 2019 election and insisted that "Tony Blair's damaging interventions with the Murdoch press" cost Labour the election, and that the "seeds were sown" for this defeat with the Iraq war. Since then Labour have not been trusted.

Braindead moron. Honestly I couldn't get my head around why he is in politics as he has no idea.

Labour lost the election because of....

• Corbyn being worse than useless at absolutely everything
• A manifesto that was just bonkers (free broadband? wtf?)
• "neutral" on a new Brexit referendum that nobody wants
• Loads of rich-bashing and nowt much else
• Corbyn, Corbyn, Corbyn. The man is kryptonite with the electorate. Couldn't even beat Theresa May, the worst PM in living memory.

Of all the things you can point to you criticise free broadband?  People are heavily reliant on the internet and that reliance is growing;  those who can least afford decent connectivity will be further isolated.

[Arsenal till I die]

On 23/02/2020 at 13:52, razamanaz said:

That well known quote: ''The poor have always voted Labour ... and they're still poor!''

I blame the green Party myself. I mean, people vote for them and they still live in a polluted country.

[Arsenal till I die]

On 21/02/2020 at 23:01, Fullerene said:

Maybe the fact that Corbyn hadn't changed despite losing the previous election was a factor.  Did you ever consider that?

I would disagree with both of you. Firstly, he did change. He went further to the left with things like free broadband (I don't disagree with the concept - a lot of things including job pages are online these days, but it's hardly a vote winner) but he felt like he had to change because of the idiots hell bent on destroying the party from within. The Tories losing their majority, in an election they called less than half way in to a term, was an abject humiliation. But no, the southern centric, ultra Remain Blairites who thought Brexit made May worse than Thatcher, train privatising Major, and more Thatcherite than Thatcher Cameron, decided that taking a swipe at the Labour leader and accusing him of missing an open goal was more important than logic, just as it was in 2015 when they claimed Labour lost seats in Scotland for being too left wing. So they managed to panic Corbyn into believing that an even bigger kick in the nuts for Boris Johnson wouldn't be good enough. He had to gamble everything for an overall majority, and he did. He believed his own hype and blew his chance to make the party a more fairer party internally, but that's another problem entirely. The irony is is that he's a mirror image of Blair - going to the right of the 97 manifesto was what did for Labour under him.

[Thane of Cawdor]

5 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Of all the things you can point to you criticise free broadband?  People are heavily reliant on the internet and that reliance is growing;  those who can least afford decent connectivity will be further isolated.

Maybe. But did Corbyn propose this as a means to address social exclusion and isolation? I thought he just wanted to give people like me a free service without any means testing. I suppose the poster you responded to was querying this as a high profile manifesto commitment and, I have to say, I am in complete agreement. I think a pledge to reopen libraries and fund improved services might do more to address social exclusion than free broadband. Anyway, how did you vote?

[pandarilla]

Maybe. But did Corbyn propose this as a means to address social exclusion and isolation? I thought he just wanted to give people like me a free service without any means testing. I suppose the poster you responded to was querying this as a high profile manifesto commitment and, I have to say, I am in complete agreement. I think a pledge to reopen libraries and fund improved services might do more to address social exclusion than free broadband. Anyway, how did you vote?

Means testing is administratively expensive and socially damaging. Free wifi was a good idea and the manifesto looked pretty fucking good to me. A radical shake-up of the British economy. Long, long overdue.

[Granny Danger]

7 hours ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

Maybe. But did Corbyn propose this as a means to address social exclusion and isolation? I thought he just wanted to give people like me a free service without any means testing. I suppose the poster you responded to was querying this as a high profile manifesto commitment and, I have to say, I am in complete agreement. I think a pledge to reopen libraries and fund improved services might do more to address social exclusion than free broadband. Anyway, how did you vote?

I voted SNP, not a difficult choice since I’m a member.

If I’d stayed outwith Scotland I would have probably voted Labour.

[scottsdad]

14 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Of all the things you can point to you criticise free broadband?  People are heavily reliant on the internet and that reliance is growing;  those who can least afford decent connectivity will be further isolated.

The free broadband was just the cherry on top of a bonkers manifesto. There is no clamour for it, people have always accepted paying a bill for the internet (going right back to paying a fiver a month and local call rates for Compuserve - showing my age).

Connectivity is a different matter and this should be rolled out everywhere. 

[NotThePars]

The manifesto was class and the policies broadly well received. It was a matter of presentation, how the policies were unveiled quite incoherently and the undue prominence given to the less important aspects either consciously by the party or the media that caused problems. You can see it in the leadership campaign right now with throwaway comments by candidates being reported as “why is x focusing on THIS of all things at this juncture?”

Corbyn was particularly unpopular among the electorate, people didn’t trust the party to deliver what it set out to do which can be read dozens of ways but my assumption from #thedoorstep was that nobody believed the party was united enough to offer a coherent programme and the Brexit culture war wasn’t neutered anywhere near the same level as it was in 2017. Couple that with the party expecting similar levels of media treatment it received in 2017 and it’s clear, to me, where Labour went wrong.

Starmer’s going to win which means the left of the party is going to face purges the second his expected media deference doesn’t materialise and the right sticks the knives in. People might want to see the left purged in penance for 2019 but it’s really obvious either from Starmer’s programme as it stands and from the last five years of the anti-Corbyn wing of Labour’s meltdown that they have nothing positive to offer other than comfy nostalgia even more delusional than Brexit Britain.

At least if Starmer wins and Baillie takes the deputy leadership up here it will make advocating for the party to abandon its kamikaze unionism more of a laugh as the rank and file in Slab know in their guts that they’re going to get wiped out in 2021 with the insane messaging coming from the party re indyref2.

[welshbairn]

For betting purposes I'm hoping that Starmer gets less than 50% and Long-Bailey gets hammered into 3rd place, so her second preference votes go to Nandy to help her pip Starmer to the post. £££££££££££££££££! 

[Thane of Cawdor]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

I voted SNP, not a difficult choice since I’m a member.

If I’d stayed outwith Scotland I would have probably voted Labour.

I think I knew you're a member of the SNP but thought you might have a vote through TU affiliation in the Labour leadership contest.

[Thane of Cawdor]

5 hours ago, pandarilla said:

10 hours ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

Maybe. But did Corbyn propose this as a means to address social exclusion and isolation? I thought he just wanted to give people like me a free service without any means testing. I suppose the poster you responded to was querying this as a high profile manifesto commitment and, I have to say, I am in complete agreement. I think a pledge to reopen libraries and fund improved services might do more to address social exclusion than free broadband. Anyway, how did you vote?

Means testing is administratively expensive and socially damaging. Free wifi was a good idea and the manifesto looked pretty fucking good to me. A radical shake-up of the British economy. Long, long overdue.

But you wouldn't need a means test if receipt of one or other of the current range of income-related benefits served as a passport to entitlement. Guarantee Pension Credit recipients would be a more deserving case for support and, probably, most likely to benefit if social isolation is the major concern.

[Detournement]

The criticism of the size of the manifesto comes from either the stupid or the disingenuous. 

The state still accounts for 41% of GDP. Having a dozen or so policies isn't excessive. The Tories have just as many policies but they are neoliberal so completely neutral to the BBC and corporate media. 

[NotThePars]

For betting purposes I'm hoping that Starmer gets less than 50% and Long-Bailey gets hammered into 3rd place, so her second preference votes go to Nandy to help her pip Starmer to the post. £££££££££££££££££! 

Fairly certain this won’t happen. There’s far more crossover between Starmer and Nandy’s preferences than there is with either of they two and RLB. Draw your own conclusions as to why that is.