What is the point of Labour ?

[pozbaird]

New Labour leadership dream team.

 

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

7 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

There’s a massive gulf between general incompetence, terrible electoral strategy and poor leadership on the one hand and radical policies on the other.

All the fruitcakes I’ve seen on TV or heard on the radio saying they didn’t like Corbyn said nothing about Labour’s policies on, for example, nationalisation of key strategic industries.

Of course the reason for that might be that, at least in part, they are brain dead c***s who have been absorbing the MSM’s message about Corbyn and are simply regurgitating it and couldn’t tell you what Labour’s policy on anything was.

 

That's about the 10th post I've seen from Labour supporters on this thread blaming the MSM.

It's complete head in the sand stuff, which deflects away from the real reasons for Labour's disaster.......dithering on Brexit, an incompetent leader, and socialist policies which simply did not attract enough voters.

Read the link to the article I posted. Do Labour members/supporters want idealistic, student union socialism that appeals only to the fringes, or do they want centrist policies that have a chance of winning power ?

If it's the first, then Labour is absolutely f*cked as a political power. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Bob Mahelp

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

That's about the 10th post I've seen from Labour supporters on this thread blaming the MSM.

It's complete head in the sand stuff, which deflects away from the real reasons for Labour's disaster.......dithering on Brexit, an incompetent leader, and socialist policies which simply did not attract enough voters.

Read the link to the article I posted. Do Labour members/supporters want idealistic, student union socialism that appeals only to the fringes, or do they want centrist policies that have a chance of winning power ?

If it's the first, then Labour is absolutely f*cked as a political power. 

I’m a member of the SNP.

[Willie adie]

Id get right behind nandy

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

Just now, Granny Danger said:

I’m a member of the SNP.

My apologies.

My point still stands though. To simply blame the MSM for Labour's failure is to ignore the reality of the situation.

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

My apologies.

My point still stands though. To simply blame the MSM for Labour's failure is to ignore the reality of the situation.

I’m not just blaming the MSM, I am saying that the Labour Party with a more effective leader, a better electioneering strategy and a more professional method of presentation could win back support without wholesale abandonment of radical policies.

As an example, there are people who continually say that Labour would never get elected if they adopt a non nuclear stance whilst ignoring that the SNP have over 45% support whilst having such a position.

 

[Guest Jedi]

Have to also compare 'centrist' Labour's strategy in 97, 01, and 05 with now....

Remember the 'pledge card'? 5 straightforward, bland and uninspiring policies which sounded pretty unthreatening...

97:

Cut class sizes to 30 or under for 5, 6 and 7-year-olds by using money from the assisted places scheme.

Fast-track punishment for persistent young offenders by halving the time from arrest to sentencing.

Cut NHS waiting lists by treating an extra 100,000 patients as a first step by releasing £100,000,000 saved from NHS red tape.

Get 250,000 under-25s off benefits and into work by using money from a windfall levy on the privatised utilities.

No rise in income tax rates, cut VAT on heating to 5% and inflation and interest rates as low as possible.

Bland to the core, but highly effective and easy to promote to the public and understand.

Compare this election.....Tories on one side....'Get Brexit Done', and errr, 20,000 more police, and 40,000 or whatever nurses, and thats about it.

Labour meanwhile, had a new giveaway every day, (20,000 extra teachers suddenly appeared post manifesto launch)...but...there was no real slogan ' For the Many, Not the Few'...what does that really mean.

It is the party which understands that the vast majority of people pay next to no attention to politics between elections, and then when one comes around, jump on a short soundbite, and maybe 2 or 3 pledges, and that's it.

Until Labour return to that way of campaigning they won't form another govt.

Another question would have to be though 'Whats the Point of the Lib Dems'?

Edited December 13, 2019 by Jedi

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Aye, there was far too much in the manifesto. The vast majority of it was good, but 90% of it wouldn't have even reached the electorate's ears.

It also allowed to media to follow up with the nonsense about 'communist' broadband and planting a billion trees and so on.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party
I detest Labour, but it's truly astounding the steps they've taken to commit political suicide over the last 4 years. 
What is almost as astounding is that some Labour supporters are demanding more of the same......a commitment to some kind of left-wing utopia that as been utterly and completely rejected by the UK electorate. 
There are many reasons why the UK now has the most extreme, right-wing government in history, but the main one is surely the vacuum created by the incompetence of Labour which allowed the Tory khunts to step right in. 

It's fucking toytown revolutionary posturing of the worst kind.

The fucking morons need to realise that without power you can't implement f**k all

[D Angelo Barksdale]

It was only last month that Freedland was smearing a prospective Labour candidate with false antisemitism accusations.

Gary Younge's piece in the same paper is better actually.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/labour-why-lost-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-media

[zidane's child]

Having had a day or so to reflect on the Labour hiding, here’s some points as to why I think they lost:

1. Leadership - Corbyn isn’t liked by a large number of the electorate.

2. Senior Aides/Campaign Strategy- I look at the Tories with Dominic Cummings behind the scenes. Love him or hate him, he knows how to run a campaign from his time at Vote Leave and Keep Britain Out (joining the Euro currency). Labour haven’t got that experience for me and I no longer know what Seamus Milne does.

3. Brexit - Boris had an oven ready deal as he liked to constantly remind us. The Labour alternative of a further negotiation and then 2nd referendum seemed pie in the sky and may have put voters off potentially.

[Londonwell]

11 hours ago, Fullerene said:

Are you suggesting Boris Johnson might be telling a fib?

Not so much suggesting anything, rather just highlighting the reality of the situation. The passing of a withdrawal agreement is nowhere near to the end of Brexit but merely the end of the beginning (the easier part).  Potential for it to get even messier from there with a real threat of no deal coming next December. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Londonwell

[Detournement]

7 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

I’m not just blaming the MSM, I am saying that the Labour Party with a more effective leader, a better electioneering strategy and a more professional method of presentation could win back support without wholesale abandonment of radical policies.

As an example, there are people who continually say that Labour would never get elected if they adopt a non nuclear stance whilst ignoring that the SNP have over 45% support whilst having such a position.

 

Because a decent sized proportion of SNP voters are attracted by the fact the SNP's policy positions are completely irrelevant.

We've seen what the media did to the SNP the single time they proposed any real change. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Detournement

[MarkoRaj]

Good to see failures like Douglas Alexander piping up to tell the Labour Leadership where they've gone wrong.

Douglas Alexander, who was in charge of Ed Milliband's crushing defeat to David Cameron in 2015 where he managed to lose his own seat as well as the whole of Scotland

[NotThePars]

Having had a day or so to reflect on the Labour hiding, here’s some points as to why I think they lost:

1. Leadership - Corbyn isn’t liked by a large number of the electorate.
2. Senior Aides/Campaign Strategy- I look at the Tories with Dominic Cummings behind the scenes. Love him or hate him, he knows how to run a campaign from his time at Vote Leave and Keep Britain Out (joining the Euro currency). Labour haven’t got that experience for me and I no longer know what Seamus Milne does.
3. Brexit - Boris had an oven ready deal as he liked to constantly remind us. The Labour alternative of a further negotiation and then 2nd referendum seemed pie in the sky and may have put voters off potentially.

Brexit and leadership seem to be the main issues that cropped up time and time again. The problem with the leadership is that the media have vilified every leader for like the past forty years outwith Blair who made a deal with the devil and stored up much of the problems that burst out on Thursday.

A problem I had with Momentum is that it neglected the building of alternative institutions on the gamble of focusing all of its attention on electoralism in the hopes of winning the next election after 2017. The constant repeating of media bullshit and the fudging on Brexit dominated on the doorstep. That’s not me complaining about the MSM so much as lamenting that there weren’t alternatives poised to get out the message to the base.

People insisting that it was the radical ideology are doing so with an agenda and are best ignored.

[pandarilla]

What part of the agenda did you not think was radical?

 

It's the neoliberal ideology that they decided to take on and you don't do that by following Tory spending plans (which Gordon brown did in 97 and middle England creamed their pants. Labour supporters wanted real change, and that's what McDonnell was offering here).

 

 

[CambieBud]

I find the media inspired hatred of Corbyn depressing. He comes across as a principled honest bloke. Disliking policies is one thing, but the constant attacks on him personally are media driven. Boris gets an easy ride, despite clearly being a lying, unprincipled, semi coherent clown. The press and particularly the TV media made no attempt to attack him. My biggest problem with Labour, a party I was a member of as a younger man, is their inability to move with the times. Scottish Labour is in danger of going the way of The Communist Party unless it breaks from London and embraces the fight for Independence . The final straw for me was seeing Labour people on the same side of the argument as Tommy Robinson, UKIP, Farage, The Orange Order, BNP and the Tories in 2014. If that fact alone cannot change them then nothing will.

[GAD]

The brexit policy was shit. The time to get on a second referendum was months and months before. Also the idea of Corbyn fucking off to Brussells to potter around for another fucking 3 months or whatever to try and get whatever it was he wanted for his deal was pointless. Johnson waa promising to finish it off, Corbyn was promising to continue dragging it out. The reality may be different, but that's what the public heard. The inability of Labour, Lib Dems and the Tory rebels to sort it out when they had the chance killed them.

As for the other policies, most of them were decent, but there were too many, and some of them weren't really anything anyone was asking for. Free broadband sounds good, but the reality is, nobody is actually particularly passionate about it and all of a sudden it's taking up valuable column inches where your NHS policies should be instead. It was a really badly run campaign.

[Detournement]

The time to support a second referendum was never. Supporting it earlier when it had no chance of suceeding would have been even more disastrous. Siding with Blair and Campbell against a democratic result is about the stupidest thing you can do. 

As far as the manifesto goes anything which isn't neoliberal and isn't in the manifesto would get blocked by the HoL so they have no choice but to pack it.

As for 1997 back then there was no climate crisis, no NHS trusts, no Academy chains of schools and capitalism wasn't in crisis due to spiralling debt levels quite yet. Things are far more complex now.

[pandarilla]

I think you're right about policies like broadband.

I'm happy to believe that it's a great policy that would be quite transformative (I certainly don't know enough about it) - but nobody really wants it. It could be one of those important things that folk don't really understand.

Do shit like that once you win, but work out a better message ahead of time.