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What is the point of Labour ?


pawpar

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2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’ll blame Switzerland.  Neutral b*****ds.

I'm ready to rent a barn and rent out beds to anyone who wants to jump ship and move over. Life will be shit and much more expensive, but I've listened to enough of you and I know you want a way out and better weather. The fact I'll be robbing you blind in the process doesn't matter. Enough of you will go for it anyway, so we all win.

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They absolutely fucked it through Corbyn's obvious ambivalence to Brexit and a set of spending plans that were 10 times as radical as they needed to be. The question of affordability was hanging right throughthe campaign. If they'd indicated that they'd be a bit quicker on becoming carbon neutral, in favour of some nationalisation (railways) and shown willingness to create a safety net whilst universal credit was replaced they might have secured a bit more "soft left" support. They were always going to get the support of the Corbyn fan club anyway. And, they could have easily explained it as a need to look at the books before pushing any further. 
But mostly, England shat it from Corbyn and McDonnell whilst Scotland had already moved on. 
It'll be 20 years before they're back. They're in a worse state than in 1983, they don't have quality like Smith (or even Kinnock), they don't have 40+ seats guaranteed from Scotland and England has shifted seismically to the right. 
Time Scottish Labour got on the indy bus. But they won't. Too busy hating the SNP. 
The 4-day week is up there as one of the running before you walk policies.
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1 hour ago, Ross. said:

The problems will only really start when they realise that all the problems they thought that Brexit would fix are either more problematic or just clearly not being fixed. Who gets the blame then?

I think the problem is that a lot of people have no expectation of anything ever improving. Especially old people who are set in their way. Trump voters didn't really think Trump would improve their lot and the protest is as much about dragging down the people who piss them off. It's a culture war and it's the same with Brexit. 

The reaction to the Broadband and tree planting policies showed how limited a lot of people's thinking is. The immediate reaction is to rubbish anything that might change things for the better.

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A large number of people think getting Brexit done is more important than anything.  "We voted for it so we will look a bit silly if we don't go through with it".  
So come February it will all be over and life will get back to normal - except that it won't and they will suddenly wonder why they voted for a Tory that they would never have considered for any other reason.
 
40 years of lying bullshit in the MSM has a lot to explain for the ingrained attitudes.

There is also the sad reality that when scratch the surface of the working class, particularly in those Northern cities with larger ethnic minority populations, that there is a large number of racists - prepared to swallow the blame johnny foreigner narrative.
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1 minute ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:
6 hours ago, HTG said:

 

The 4-day week is up there as one of the running before you walk policies.

It makes sense though. Automation and AI is going to reduce the amount of work that needs to be done while the number of people who need jobs increases. 4 day week solves that problem and is proven to increase productivity.

It's complex but society is complex. 

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Saying you want to deal with it isn't radical. Actually dealing with it is. There are no moderate solutions to housing, climate or inequality. The scale of the solution is determined by the size of the problems and the problems are huge. 
I agree about the Brexit 'get it done'. A second referendum wasn't popular at all but it was forced onto Corbyn. He should have stayed stronger on that. 
There was a time and place to support a referendum - Labour left it way too late - to the point that people's patience was wearing thin.

I genuinely think they could have neutered the issue long before if they had accepted May's deal on the basis that it went to an affirmative referendum.
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Working people voted Tory in their millions.

You're in total denial but that's your problem not mine. The map of England is now almost exclusively blue outside the major cities.

There won't be a serious Labour challenge to the Tories for another 20 years.

Not only for the Tories but also for the Brexit Party.

 

If the working class and even the underclass are voting Tory/Brexit Party then Labour has a serious problem.

 

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It makes sense though. Automation and AI is going to reduce the amount of work that needs to be done while the number of people who need jobs increases. 4 day week solves that problem and is proven to increase productivity.
It's complex but society is complex. 
Not disagreeing but we are talking about the trying to get votes from people who are either not working, are in zero hour contracts or shitty service sector jobs on minimum pay.

Get the basics right first.
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40 years of lying bullshit in the MSM has a lot to explain for the ingrained attitudes.

There is also the sad reality that when scratch the surface of the working class, particularly in those Northern cities with larger ethnic minority populations, that there is a large number of racists - prepared to swallow the blame johnny foreigner narrative.
I think the racism is such a complicated one.

Do you think Scotland would be different if it had similar levels of immigration?

There are always racist folk unfortunately but I don't think these areas are inherently more bigoted than Scottish equivalents (given the different levels).

There's no easy out for labour on this issue.
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5 hours ago, Detournement said:

Utter shite. 

Labour are still the main party amongst working people. The Tories are the party of pensioners.  And unfortunately pensioners are very efficently placed all over England outside the cities. 

You can't move for working class people in Manchester, Newcastle, London and Sheffield. Some working class Labour Leave voters went to the Tories due to Brexit which is the fault of the party for ignoring them but that issue is done now. 

Therein lies the problem when you tag sections of the the voting public, to define 'working class ' is difficult nowadays, days past it was an easily defined area when men and women mainly were employed in manual type work, now with industries such as mining and shipbuilding for example a thing of the past we have moved on, and voting is more fluid where people are no longer stereotyped into party voting lines, try telling the average IT worker he is 'working class'.

Again to tag pensioners as solely tory voters is silly.

Your social class theories are like the Labour party, a thing of the past. 

Edited by SandyCromarty
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I think the racism is such a complicated one.

Do you think Scotland would be different if it had similar levels of immigration?

There are always racist folk unfortunately but I don't think these areas are inherently more bigoted than Scottish equivalents (given the different levels).

There's no easy out for labour on this issue.
The problem is that the right wing MSM set the narrative and most politicians either pander to them or don't do too much to rock the boat.

When politicians do rock the boat these b*****ds will lie and lie to demonise them.

It's not new and goes back decades - the Zinoviev letter was the forerunner of the Corbyn is a terrorist supporter narrative.
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4 hours ago, Fullerene said:

A large number of people think getting Brexit done is more important than anything.  "We voted for it so we will look a bit silly if we don't go through with it".  

So come February it will all be over and life will get back to normal - except that it won't and they will suddenly wonder why they voted for a Tory that they would never have considered for any other reason.

 

Got some real bad news for you if you think Brexit will be over and forgotten about by February...

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Brexit was the main factor. Their stance appeared as clear as mud. This led to losses in their former heartland.

Media did a job on Corbyn. Reminded me of Michael Foot and to a degree Kinoch campaigns. Too socialist for the rump of English voters. 

Should have been more clear on the important topics and cleared their own house years ago re: antisemitism accusations.

Basically they need to shift back to the right but it's all a bit late for them really.

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On 29/10/2019 at 07:27, Day of the Lords said:

That was particularly shameless, however I don't think he'll swing many voters with that drivel. No one outside hardcore Laeburr voters in Scotland take Corbyn or his branch office manager particularly seriously as "leaders". 

Labour will be absolutely rinsed in Scotland if there's a GE in December. It'll be thoroughly enjoyable. 

 

👏👏

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2 minutes ago, jagfox99 said:

Brexit was the main factor. Their stance appeared as clear as mud. This led to losses in their former heartland.

Media did a job on Corbyn. Reminded me of Michael Foot and to a degree Kinoch campaigns. Too socialist for the rump of English voters. 

Should have been more clear on the important topics and cleared their own house years ago re: antisemitism accusations.

Basically they need to shift back to the right but it's all a bit late for them really.

Corbyn was never going to be able to deal with the vastly exaggerated anti-Semitism accusations.

He was unjustly crucified by the media for this whilst the racist Johnson was virtually unchallenged.

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3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Corbyn was never going to be able to deal with the vastly exaggerated anti-Semitism accusations.

He was unjustly crucified by the media for this whilst the racist Johnson was virtually unchallenged.

Corbyn was on a self destruct path, his main core policies are outdated and what you've got is Swampy in a suit.

John McDonnell and Tom Watson were more acceptable.

Johnson  just kept banging on about getting Brexit done and it turned out that that was what the voting public reacted to, simple politics like the man.

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It is interesting that a fair chunk of women of a certain age in the North of England, the price of Brexit to them personally is £38,000.

Wouldn’t quite work as good on a bus, but amazing when you think about it. To think you’d usually say most people vote selfishly...

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Corbyn was never going to be able to deal with the vastly exaggerated anti-Semitism accusations. He was unjustly crucified by the media for this whilst the racist Johnson was virtually unchallenged.

 

The reality is that large swathes of our press are controlled by tax-dodging billionaires - it's hard to beat that if you are constantly hit over the head with it - even more so when members of your own party are supplying the ammunition for them. 

However, my biggest gripe is the way our so called "unbiased" national broadcaster has cosied up to Johnson.

 

The likes of Kuennesberg have been major proponents of client journalism throughout the Johnson premiership - regurgitating Cummings press releases and tweets as "news" without questioning the veracity of what they've been given.

 

It's not even journalism - is being a lazy b*****d because you are on the same class divide.

 

Where have all the good journalists gone?

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Paco said:

It is interesting that a fair chunk of women of a certain age in the North of England, the price of Brexit to them personally is £38,000.

Wouldn’t quite work as good on a bus, but amazing when you think about it. To think you’d usually say most people vote selfishly...

Some folk are too stupid to be selfish.

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