Detournement Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, HTG said: They absolutely fucked it through Corbyn's obvious ambivalence to Brexit and a set of spending plans that were 10 times as radical as they needed to be. The question of affordability was hanging right throughthe campaign. If they'd indicated that they'd be a bit quicker on becoming carbon neutral, in favour of some nationalisation (railways) and shown willingness to create a safety net whilst universal credit was replaced they might have secured a bit more "soft left" support. They were always going to get the support of the Corbyn fan club anyway. And, they could have easily explained it as a need to look at the books before pushing any further. I don't agree about the cost of the program. To me it's fairly obvious that if the UK can afford to bail out the banks and do QE at huge losses it can afford to invest in the national infrastructure in ways which will generate positive returns. The problems that the manifesto addressed 100% exist and the manifesto was tailored to solve them. I don't think that the technical points made difference though compared to Brexit, the terror smears and the clearly emerging US style culture war. If there are idiots who genuinely believe that a national economy is like a household budget there is not much you can do. Edited December 13, 2019 by Detournement 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Detournement said: I don't agree about the cost of the program. To me it's fairly obvious that if the UK can afford to bail out the banks and do QE at huge losses it can afford to invest in the national infrastructure in ways which will generate positive returns. The problems that the manifesto addressed 100% exist and the manifesto was tailored to solve them. I don't think that the technical points made difference though compared to Brexit, the terror smears and the clearly emerging US style culture war. If there are idiots who genuinely believe that a national economy is like a household budget there is not much you can do. Sorry, I know you don't agree about the cost but whether it's affordable or not, it never cut through the less invested people who were needed by Labour. They absolutely did worry about affordability. Labour could have been much more modest about spending and still been in a completely different place to the Tories but they went baws oot and England doesn't want that whether you think they/we need it or not. Leave voters also deserted them of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, HTG said: Labour could have been much more modest about spending and still been in a completely different place to the Tories but they went baws oot and England doesn't want that whether you think they/we need it or not. Leave voters also deserted them of course. The Tories have doubled the national debt while enforcing austerity and wages are still lower than 2008. Why is no one worried about that? It's obviously down to media narratives but the idea that there is no alternative to the Cameron/Osborne small state model is clearly false. Public spending under Labour would still be less than Germany and France. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Angelo Barksdale Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 It's difficult for Labour and I think they desperately need Brexit over one way or another. The membership want centre left/left wing policy, but the English voters, (encouraged by the press mind) don't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 13 minutes ago, oaksoft said: That's effectively the end of Labour in the UK. They seem to represent only a handful of metropolitan elites. The working classes have effectively moved to Tory. Wouldn't want to be in charge of figuring out how to reverse all of that. Utter shite. Labour are still the main party amongst working people. The Tories are the party of pensioners. And unfortunately pensioners are very efficently placed all over England outside the cities. You can't move for working class people in Manchester, Newcastle, London and Sheffield. Some working class Labour Leave voters went to the Tories due to Brexit which is the fault of the party for ignoring them but that issue is done now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Angelo Barksdale Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 A big problem for Labour is their heartland northern seats. The pin a red rosette on a monkey, my da voted labour so I do too constituencies. The SNP obliterated the Scottish ones in 2015 and have now strengthened their hold on them. They aren't going back. The Tories have started taking them on England. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 A large number of people think getting Brexit done is more important than anything. "We voted for it so we will look a bit silly if we don't go through with it". So come February it will all be over and life will get back to normal - except that it won't and they will suddenly wonder why they voted for a Tory that they would never have considered for any other reason. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 That's true but i think it's understandable that people who voted Leave are genuinely angry that the referendum result wasn't being implemented. Smug People's Vote arseholes on the TV every day wouldn't have helped either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Detournement said: The policies won't change. There is no way to get a manifesto through the conference that says we won't deal with climate change, we won't deal with inequality, we won't deal with the housing crisis etc. Those are hardly radical social democratic policies though. Even most Tories would be happy to vote for a manifesto that says it wants to deal with those things. I don't think Labour are as fucked as some people think. Most of their problems are of their own making. They got squeezed by Brexit because they took a position that appealed to nobody. Like it or not, 'get it done' appelas to everyone who voted Leave and a fair chunk of folk who voted remain but have made peace with teh result and want to move on. I don't think yesterday was some ringing endorsement of 'Johnsonism' as much as it was a response to Brexit and a rejection of Corbyn. I don't think Labour will win an election in England by promising to nationalise multiple industries, hand out money to the WASPI women, make internet free and make the UK carbon neutral by 2030. Anecdotally, more than a few potential Labour voters were put of by the ide aof paying more inheretinace tax and stuff like that. Get in a leadership team who understand that you pick your battles without selling out and they can come back. Corbyn's leadership has been one long example in gormless incompetence though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Utter shite. Labour are still the main party amongst working people. The Tories are the party of pensioners. And unfortunately pensioners are very efficently placed all over England outside the cities. You can't move for working class people in Manchester, Newcastle, London and Sheffield. Some working class Labour Leave voters went to the Tories due to Brexit which is the fault of the party for ignoring them but that issue is done now. Give up dude and join the SNP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: Those are hardly radical social democratic policies though. Even most Tories would be happy to vote for a manifesto that says it wants to deal with those things. Saying you want to deal with it isn't radical. Actually dealing with it is. There are no moderate solutions to housing, climate or inequality. The scale of the solution is determined by the size of the problems and the problems are huge. I agree about the Brexit 'get it done'. A second referendum wasn't popular at all but it was forced onto Corbyn. He should have stayed stronger on that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Detournement said: Saying you want to deal with it isn't radical. Actually dealing with it is. There are no moderate solutions to housing, climate or inequality. The scale of the solution is determined by the size of the problems and the problems are huge. It's degrees though. You can certainly take a more radical position on any of those things or a less radical one. I think a Labour party that tries to take what's seen as a more radical stance on too wide a range of issues is doomed to fail in England. If Labour had a sensible Brexit position and took strong positions on these three issues, I think they'd have been in with a shout. The drip drip effect of "let's nationalise electricity", "let's offer free internet", "let's do this" just scares off too many people. Edited December 13, 2019 by Gordon EF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Angelo Barksdale Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Excited for a couple of years worth of smug centrist 'I told you so' opinion pieces and columns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said: Excited for a couple of years worth of smug centrist 'I told you so' opinion pieces and columns. The people in charge of worse campaigns in 2010 and 2015 who spent the past 4 years whipping up moral panics and equivocating between mild social democracy and hard right extremism are here to tell us where we went wrong. We had a New Deal for Guardian columnists in this country when we should've had a Terror. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 They should elect this guy leader. Frank Spencer leads the revolution. https://twitter.com/JodyyDC/status/1205342709436878850?s=20 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Detournement said: That's true but i think it's understandable that people who voted Leave are genuinely angry that the referendum result wasn't being implemented. Smug People's Vote arseholes on the TV every day wouldn't have helped either. The problems will only really start when they realise that all the problems they thought that Brexit would fix are either more problematic or just clearly not being fixed. Who gets the blame then? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Stuck the money I got backing SNP to take Dunbartonshire East last night on Rebecca Long-Bailey to be the next leader. Jess Phillips is third favourite which is mental given her popularity is purely media hype. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, oaksoft said: You are clutching at straws but that's your right I suppose. Those votes are not going to return to Labour again for a couple of decades at least unless the new Labour leader actually listens to what voters are saying matters to them. Those who don't listen, don't win. That's why we have Trump and Johnson. Those two DID listen. Not so sure. These voters are unhappy with their lot and the Tories have convinced them that the EU is to blame and leaving the EU will fix everything. When leaving the EU doesn't fix anything then maybe things will change. How can you be accused of not listening when people complain about the NHS and you say "okay let's talk about the NHS" and when they complain about housing and you say "okay let's talk about housing" and so on and so on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, NotThePars said: Stuck the money I got backing SNP to take Dunbartonshire East last night on Rebecca Long-Bailey to be the next leader. Jess Phillips is third favourite which is mental given her popularity is purely media hype. Trying to get a double with the next LibDem leader but the bookies aren't having it, don't see why, they're not related. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 30 minutes ago, Ross. said: The problems will only really start when they realise that all the problems they thought that Brexit would fix are either more problematic or just clearly not being fixed. Who gets the blame then? I’ll blame Switzerland. Neutral b*****ds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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