AUFC90 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 It’s quite easy for anyone with the slightest interest to understand. However most folk don’t have the slightest interest, something that the Labour Party seem too stupid to factor in. Aye so so easy. Corbyn wants all the good bits from the EU with no freedom of movement. In other words, he's full of pish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedToGoToCentralPark Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Aye so so easy. Corbyn wants all the good bits from the EU with no freedom of movement. In other words, he's full of pish. Nope, labour passed a motion at its conference pledging to maintain and extend free movement rights.But the position of the party is clear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 What would you have suggested? All out remain straight after the vote? I genuinely can't see how the Labour party could've played this much different. B I think their strategy has been dreadful all along. Not hard enough pro-Remain during the referendum. Not hard enough for a Soft Brexit eg CU/SM afterwards. Too focused on another General Election instead of backing a second referendum at an earlier stage. When they do back it - Labour won't back either side but have a free vote - seriously - where is the fucking leadership there? The moron almost gave Boris his General Election until he was reined in by McDonnell - I genuinely think he is out of his depth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 The Labour party is made up of its members but they know that their voters are split badly on this issue. Coming down too heavy for remain would isolate a lot of potential labour voters. I also thought Corbyn campaigned very well for remain (pre referendum). I watched a sky news debate where he took question after question and explained his position and view of the EU very clearly. He made sense, and convinced people in that room. But Corbyn (and he's not alone) is very skeptical about the EU and so he didn't get on board the media bandwagon and cheer it to the rafters. Then he get caned for not trying hard enough - but that's absolute nonsense. I want honest answers to difficult and complex questions - not soundbites that suit the media narrative. The line about him not campaigning strongly enough is a giant red herring. I take your point about pushing for a soft brexit, but they definitely tried to suggest that alternative. Arguably they were trying to take advantage and criticise the government too much when they should have been constructive but then folk would've said "where's the opposition?" so they're kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't. And I don't mind a free vote on a second referendum. This issue is massive to people and Boris has shown what happens when you start cracking the whip. Good, solid members are forced out of the party and it looks shambolic.All in all I think brexit has been an absolute nightmare for both the Labour and conservative parties. Trying to navigate this process without destroying the party is incredibly difficult, and I don't think Corbyn has been that bad on the issue. I'm not a massive fan of his leadership in general but he's been handed a massive turd here. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, pandarilla said: The Labour party is made up of its members but they know that their voters are split badly on this issue. Coming down too heavy for remain would isolate a lot of potential labour voters. I also thought Corbyn campaigned very well for remain (pre referendum). I watched a sky news debate where he took question after question and explained his position and view of the EU very clearly. He made sense, and convinced people in that room. But Corbyn (and he's not alone) is very skeptical about the EU and so he didn't get on board the media bandwagon and cheer it to the rafters. Then he get caned for not trying hard enough - but that's absolute nonsense. I want honest answers to difficult and complex questions - not soundbites that suit the media narrative. The line about him not campaigning strongly enough is a giant red herring. I take your point about pushing for a soft brexit, but they definitely tried to suggest that alternative. Arguably they were trying to take advantage and criticise the government too much when they should have been constructive but then folk would've said "where's the opposition?" so they're kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't. And I don't mind a free vote on a second referendum. This issue is massive to people and Boris has shown what happens when you start cracking the whip. Good, solid members are forced out of the party and it looks shambolic. All in all I think brexit has been an absolute nightmare for both the Labour and conservative parties. Trying to navigate this process without destroying the party is incredibly difficult, and I don't think Corbyn has been that bad on the issue. I'm not a massive fan of his leadership in general but he's been handed a massive turd here. I think your first paragraph is misleading. It is my understanding that in most/all Labour Leave seats the majority of Labour voters voted Remain.* Labour have more to lose electorally by fudging on the issue and losing Remain Labour voters than by taking a Remain position and losing Leave Labour voters. ETA * and since the referendum the Remain position will have strengthened. Edited October 9, 2019 by Granny Danger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I think your first paragraph is misleading. It is my understanding that in most/all Labour Leave seats the majority of Labour voters voted Remain.* Labour have more to lose electorally by fudging on the issue and losing Remain Labour voters than by taking a Remain position and losing Leave Labour voters. ETA * and since the referendum the Remain position will have strengthened.Fair point, but still a big minority in a lot of those key seats. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Too focused on another General Election instead of backing a second referendum at an earlier stage.I would actually argue that the Lib Dems and ‘People’s Vote’ lost fucked the second referendum by calling for it almost immediately after the vote, in sore loser terms. We’ve hit a stage where it’s actually the rational route out, but because it’s been suggested for so long and been promoted by pro-Remain extremists, it’s ruled out by everyone on the Leave side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Granny Danger said: I think your first paragraph is misleading. It is my understanding that in most/all Labour Leave seats the majority of Labour voters voted Remain.* There is no data on the constituency level. Even if there was the idea that it's fine to alienate a significant minority of your voters is idiotic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I would actually argue that the Lib Dems and ‘People’s Vote’ lost fucked the second referendum by calling for it almost immediately after the vote, in sore loser terms. We’ve hit a stage where it’s actually the rational route out, but because it’s been suggested for so long and been promoted by pro-Remain extremists, it’s ruled out by everyone on the Leave side. I did say earlier - the best thing they could have done was say to May that they would let her deal through so long as it went to an affirmative vote - at no point did they even attempt that.Even now - any referendum is after a General Election.Personally, I think we are way past the negotiation stage with the EU - they should push for a referendum - No Deal/Boris's Deal vs Remain.They have zero chance of getting a renegotiated deal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I did say earlier - the best thing they could have done was say to May that they would let her deal through so long as it went to an affirmative vote - at no point did they even attempt that. Even now - any referendum is after a General Election. Personally, I think we are way past the negotiation stage with the EU - they should push for a referendum - No Deal/Boris's Deal vs Remain. They have zero chance of getting a renegotiated deal. I think the EU would be delighted to get shot of us in a soft customs union style Brexit and they'd be relieved to do a deal with rational and realistic negotiators. Staying in with the high risk of the whole shambles happening again every election would be as bad as a no deal for them. Their patience isn't unlimited. And they have to agree a 7 year budget next summer, having another likely hung parliament in Westminster would be a nightmare with nothing resolved. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I think the EU would be delighted to get shot of us in a soft customs union style Brexit and they'd be relieved to do a deal with rational and realistic negotiators. Staying in with the high risk of the whole shambles happening again every election would be as bad as a no deal for them. Their patience isn't unlimited. And they have to agree a 7 year budget next summer, having another likely hung parliament in Westminster would be a nightmare with nothing resolved. If we did have a second referendum and a Remain vote I don't think we'd ever have an EU referendum again - certainly not in my lifetime. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Certainly hope you're right, but I've never been so pessimistic about the future. We were launched into a parallel universe a few years ago when they found the Higgs Boson after firing up the Swiss doughnut to max, and everything looks really shitty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedToGoToCentralPark Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 If we did have a second referendum and a Remain vote I don't think we'd ever have an EU referendum again - certainly not in my lifetime.Aye but a vote for remain makes it 1 all. It fixes nothing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 4 hours ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said: 5 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: If we did have a second referendum and a Remain vote I don't think we'd ever have an EU referendum again - certainly not in my lifetime. Aye but a vote for remain makes it 1 all. It fixes nothing. No. It would make it 2-1. We had a referendum back in the 70s in which we voted to remain. If we voted to Remain in a third referendum and the Brexiteers wanted a fourth referendum then the response would be "okay but what is the plan? You never had one last time." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Aye but a vote for remain makes it 1 all. It fixes nothing.It retains the status quo you utter moron. This isn't a game of fives we're talking about here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedToGoToCentralPark Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 It retains the status quo you utter moron. This isn't a game of fives we're talking about here. Let's ignore the democratic will of the people.You're the moron here not me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said: Let's ignore the democratic will of the people. You're the moron here not me. If you’re suggesting that No Deal is the Democratic will of the majority of U.K. citizens do you have any evidence to support this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Let's ignore the democratic will of the people.You're the moron here not me.Yes, let’s. Most people are fucking idiots.f**k democracy, Andy Wightman president for life please. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Granny Danger said: If you’re suggesting that No Deal is the Democratic will of the majority of U.K. citizens do you have any evidence to support this? Good point on the James O'Brien show. If No Deal was what we wanted all along then why are we blaming the EU for forcing it on us? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, Fullerene said: Good point on the James O'Brien show. If No Deal was what we wanted all along then why are we blaming the EU for forcing it on us? B*stard frogs and krauts giving us what we want! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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