What is the point of Labour ?

[Detournement]

Or can we say that pollsters know how to get the results they desire.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

13 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Can we settle for ‘large swathes of the public are massively thick and swayed by shiny new things, or that they see their actual vote as some kind of X-factor palaver’?

Of course we can, I'm always open to compromise.

 

12 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Or can we say that pollsters know how to get the results they desire.

Perhaps "know what questions to ask of which people to get the results they desire?

(Politically active for almost four decades, never been approached by these eedjits for my (probably more informed than Joe Average) opinion.)

[Fullerene]

50 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

Given that TIG (the Tiggers?) have no policies, let alone a manifesto, I think that says the Great British Electorate may be more of a threat to Democracy than the FPTP system.

I'm not saying that the public are massively thick and swayed by shiny new things, or that they see their actual vote as some kind of X-factor palaver, but I wouldn't disagree with anyone who did.

It says a lot about the Labour Party and the Tories that a party that can only be defined at the moment as "None of the above" is getting 14% support.
 

[ICTJohnboy]

2 hours ago, WATTOO said:

You can think of me however the hell you like, it really makes no difference, however, can you give it a rest with harassing and interrogating the rest of the posters here on how they interpret my posts ??

Thanks.

 

Ignore him, Wattoo,

He's just a wee inadequate bully.

[Granny Danger]

This Labour Councillor’s solution to supposed anti-Semitism, join the Tories.  Absolute scumbag.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-47306426

Interestingly not a single example or incident given.

 

 

[yoda]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

No they don’t contradict each other.

"Contradict" is perhaps the wrong choice of word. There's certainly an incompatibility between the two things*. Regardless, this drawing an equivalence between "Israel and Jews" and "Catholic Church and Catholics" is silly, and either (at best) ignorant or (at worst) anti-Semitic. 

*the implication is, and we've seen it time and time again, that if they don't condemn the actions of the Israeli government then they're tacitly supporting them, and if they support them then we tar them with the "zionist" brush.

 

[Baxter Parp]

Andrew Neil‏Verified account @afneil

Derek Hatton has been suspended from the Labour Party just days after being readmitted, reports Press Association.

Farce upon farce.

[Granny Danger]

4 minutes ago, yoda said:

"Contradict" is perhaps the wrong choice of word. There's certainly an incompatibility between the two things*. Regardless, this drawing an equivalence between "Israel and Jews" and "Catholic Church and Catholics" is silly, and either (at best) ignorant or (at worst) anti-Semitic. 

*the implication is, and we've seen it time and time again, that if they don't condemn the actions of the Israeli government then they're tacitly supporting them, and if they support them then we tar them with the "zionist" brush.

 

I’ll accept they are not identical.  Anyone failing to criticise the actions of Israel is tacitly supporting them.  If this wasn’t a country backed by the USA and other western countries their actions would be under far more scrutiny and their barbarities achieve far greater headlines.

 Instead we have the MSM talking about ‘Israeli security forces’ and ‘Palestine militants’ without any objectivity or without pointing out the vast military might of one over the other.

[ICTJohnboy]

53 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Andrew Neil‏Verified account @afneil

Derek Hatton has been suspended from the Labour Party just days after being readmitted, reports Press Association.

Farce upon farce.

 

That beggars belief.

Quote

But senior Labour figures have since complained about the move and comments the ex-Militant man made about Israel.

In a tweet in 2012, he urged "Jewish people with any sense of humanity" to condemn Israel's "ruthless murdering".

A Labour party source said the party was "not aware of this material" when it had provisionally approved Mr Hatton's application to rejoin the party.

Was his tweet in 2012 really out of order?

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

That beggars belief.

Was his tweet in 2012 really out of order?

Yes. Saying all Jews should anything is wrong. It's like saying all black people should condemn Robert Mugabe as if they're somehow responsible.

[Detournement]

That type of comment is idiotic and racist but we used to get constant demands for muslims to condemn terrorism without anyone blinking an eye.

[Granny Danger]

9 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Should Jews have an opinion on the activities of Israel?

Its like that bam who hassled a woman in a veil over ISIS beheadings. If the latter is Islamophobic, then the former is certainly antisemitic.

We should all have an opinion on Israel.  All of us.

[murphy1970]

The problem with Labour and antisemitism is a wider problem on the left.

Successive Israeli govts have behaved despicably toward the Palestinians and this has reached a nadir under Netanyahu. Calling out the Israeli govt for its many crimes against humanity is to be expected from anyone who is moderately progressive.

The problem is that when decrying Zionism the left too often seem to be ignoring history from the mid twentieth century on. Israel exists, and practically no Israelis or the wider Jewish diaspora wants Israel to disappear. Calling for a democratic secular state, as many do on the far left, is to ignore the world as it is and try to start from some imaginary ideal state. 

When folk on the Labour left attack zionism they should be mindful that there are zionists and zionists. Peace Now, a worthy organisation, are zionist but of a very different stripe from Likud 

The only viable solution to Israel/Palestine is a genuine two state solution; one which offers a real Palestinian state rather than the dribs and drabs Israel has grudgingly handed over.

[Granny Danger]

5 minutes ago, murphy1970 said:

The problem with Labour and antisemitism is a wider problem on the left.

Successive Israeli govts have behaved despicably toward the Palestinians and this has reached a nadir under Netanyahu. Calling out the Israeli govt for its many crimes against humanity is to be expected from anyone who is moderately progressive.

The problem is that when decrying Zionism the left too often seem to be ignoring history from the mid twentieth century on. Israel exists, and practically no Israelis or the wider Jewish diaspora wants Israel to disappear. Calling for a democratic secular state, as many do on the far left, is to ignore the world as it is and try to start from some imaginary ideal state. 

When folk on the Labour left attack zionism they should be mindful that there are zionists and zionists. Peace Now, a worthy organisation, are zionist but of a very different stripe from Likud 

The only viable solution to Israel/Palestine is a genuine two state solution; one which offers a real Palestinian state rather than the dribs and drabs Israel has grudgingly handed over.

Is there anyone credible on the left who is arguing for anything other than a two state solution?

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Granny Danger

[murphy1970]

I think it's a matter of perception. There certainly are a lot of folk on the Trotskyist left who are reluctant two staters. Many moons ago I was involved in the AWL and they were practically black balled on the left and decried as zionists because they supported Israel's right to exist.

I'm on Twitter a lot and in essence all you have to do is follow left wing comedian David Schneider to see the problem some on the left have with antisemitism 

[Granny Danger]

17 minutes ago, murphy1970 said:

I think it's a matter of perception. There certainly are a lot of folk on the Trotskyist left who are reluctant two staters. Many moons ago I was involved in the AWL and they were practically black balled on the left and decried as zionists because they supported Israel's right to exist.

I'm on Twitter a lot and in essence all you have to do is follow left wing comedian David Schneider to see the problem some on the left have with antisemitism 

I don’t know any credible politicians on the left who oppose a two state solution.  Many on the right pay lip service to it but don’t really support it.

[NotThePars]

I think those on the left that criticise the two state solution are arguing that the ability to create a meaningful Palestine state has rapidly diminished.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Granny Danger said:

I don’t know any credible politicians on the left who oppose a two state solution.  Many on the right pay lip service to it but don’t really support it.

The continuous Israeli land confiscation by all Governments has made a Palestinian State on the West Bank unviable, other than a series of disconnected Bantustans. It's been the Israelis prime goal since 1967 to make a 2 state solution impossible, and they've succeeded. I don't see any future other than Israeli occupation, a one state solution won't happen either as that would mean a Palestinian majority. It's all a bit gloomy.

[HTG]

This Israel stuff is all well and good but what the f**k is the point of Labour? They should be knocking fucking lumps out of this government but can't lay a glove.   

[thisal]

16 hours ago, Pauli said:

Plucky little Israel, with their Overwhelmingly and vastly superior Armed forces and American aided intelligence , a War which at the time was predicted to be over in days .

Yes, right plucky of them .

I once worked with a guy who was a conscript in the Egyptian army during the 6 day war. He said the reason it lasted 6 days was because it took them 5 days to find us.