What is the point of Labour ?

[Donathan]

19 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

We already have one right wing Conservative party and we don't really need another one, the point of Labour under Corbyn is that it has returned that party to it's rightful place in the political spectrum, hence the reason they had an upsurge in support and indeed membership since the so called "left" took back control.

Personally I'm an SNP supporter and party member, however while I believe Corbyn to be pretty incompetent I'd still rather see a Labour party which stands for socialism, especially in these times of such extremes in wealth and wages that we are currently living through, otherwise there's no options for the ordinary working person who needs to see some sort of equality and change as opposed to looking forward to their next visit to the foodbank...........

 

Foodbanks weren't exactly on the rise under Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, in fact for as much of the Tory benefit reforms being (rightfully, IMO) criticised, I remember in the latter half of the last decade a lot of public ire being directed at the Labour government for being too generous with benefits. Umunna and his pals seem to align their economic views most closely with the new Labour governments, not exactly the right wing of the Tory party.

[Wee Bully]

2 minutes ago, Donathan said:

 

Foodbanks weren't exactly on the rise under Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, in fact for as much of the Tory benefit reforms being (rightfully, IMO) criticised, I remember in the latter half of the last decade a lot of public ire being directed at the Labour government for being too generous with benefits. Umunna and his pals seem to align their economic views most closely with the new Labour governments, not exactly the right wing of the Tory party.

Exactly - that's why they are "centrist".  Certainly not right wing.  It is only the died-in-the-wool socialists who think so, and have made Corbyn very popular within his political heartland where purity of thought and dogma are paramount, and completely unelectable.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Donathan said:

 

Foodbanks weren't exactly on the rise under Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, in fact for as much of the Tory benefit reforms being (rightfully, IMO) criticised, I remember in the latter half of the last decade a lot of public ire being directed at the Labour government for being too generous with benefits. Umunna and his pals seem to align their economic views most closely with the new Labour governments, not exactly the right wing of the Tory party.

That's because it's only now we're seeing the effects of their policies feed through.

Nothing happens overnight as you should know, however selling off your assets to private enterprise and foreign asset strippers and lowering taxation for the wealthy only ever ends in one way and it's the poorest in society who pick up the tab as always.........

[AUFC90]

You have the same rights as anybody else. I'm just questioning your interest if you think none of it amounts to anything useful for people.
I mean if you were on a crusade to 'change politics', then i would get it. But instead you think its all a load of shite that doesn't help anyone (which i'm sorry is a completely moronic and ignorant view), so why bother?   

They are out all for themselves. If you don't see that than maybe you're the moron.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

Exactly - that's why they are "centrist".  Certainly not right wing.  It is only the died-in-the-wool socialists who think so, and have made Corbyn very popular within his political heartland where purity of thought and dogma are paramount, and completely unelectable.

Location : Newton Mearns

Say no more...............

[Wee Bully]

Just now, WATTOO said:

Location : Newton Mearns

Say no more...............

Team: Ayr United.  Must be a Tory then....

[Guest]

Just now, Wee Bully said:

Team: Ayr United.  Must be a Tory then....

Touche.

Nah, I'm from North Ayrshire I'm afraid, where I see first hand the extreme poverty inflicted on communities through years of neglect and indifference.

[NotThePars]

10 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

Exactly - that's why they are "centrist".  Certainly not right wing.  It is only the died-in-the-wool socialists who think so, and have made Corbyn very popular within his political heartland where purity of thought and dogma are paramount, and completely unelectable.

 

That's not the case at all. Corbyn's compromised on loads of policies which is part of the reason that I've been switched off from supporting Labour. 

[Granny Danger]

43 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

We already have one right wing Conservative party and we don't really need another one, the point of Labour under Corbyn is that it has returned that party to it's rightful place in the political spectrum, hence the reason they had an upsurge in support and indeed membership since the so called "left" took back control.

Personally I'm an SNP supporter and party member, however while I believe Corbyn to be pretty incompetent I'd still rather see a Labour party which stands for socialism, especially in these times of such extremes in wealth and wages that we are currently living through, otherwise there's no options for the ordinary working person who needs to see some sort of equality and change as opposed to looking forward to their next visit to the foodbank...........

My position exactly.  Corbyn is a dick on Scottish Independence and Brexit but I’d rather have him in No 10 than May or someone like Tom Watson.

[Londonwell]

16 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

1 hour ago, Londonwell said:

You have the same rights as anybody else. I'm just questioning your interest if you think none of it amounts to anything useful for people.
I mean if you were on a crusade to 'change politics', then i would get it. But instead you think its all a load of shite that doesn't help anyone (which i'm sorry is a completely moronic and ignorant view), so why bother?   

They are out all for themselves. If you don't see that than maybe you're the moron.

Maybe i am a moron. But if such a sweeping generalisation is true then why...

Do MP's and/or their staff champion cases of constituents unfairly treated by the Home Office and face deportation under some archaic ruling? Why do MP's  help countless people with disabilities through the minefield's of PIP/ESA mandatory reconsideration's and appeals processes? Why do constituency offices collect for local food banks? Why do MP's arrange job's fair's in an effort to boost local employment?  Why do MP's seek private meetings with relevant minister's in effort to get a hardship, of whatever form, lifted from one of their constituent's? Why do MP's hold advice surgeries with the exact aim of helping people in their community? Would you like me to go on?

Of course there are bad MP's out there. There are bad employees in every employment in every walk of life. But try and lift your head out the mud and think about things a little bit more. There are good people out there, trying their best to help those disadvantaged by 'the system'.

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Londonwell

[Donathan]

It's no coincidence that the only two people to have won a majority in the UK general election for over a quarter of a century are the most moderate Labour leader of all time and the most moderate Conservative leader of all time. Both had the economy doing reasonably well compared to similar countries in the early years of leadership but will be best remembered for a single fatal mistake (Iraq for Blair, Brexit for Cameron)

 

The UK electorate simply doesn't support old school socialism nor Thatcherite right wing policies. Labour can choose to be pragmatic to try and win back power, or stick with Corbyn and accept more years of Tory rule.

[AUFC90]

Maybe i am a moron. But if such a sweeping generalisation is true then why...
Do MP's and/or their staff champion cases of constituents unfairly treated by the Home Office and face deportation under some archaic ruling? Why do MP's  help countless people with disabilities through the minefield's of PIP/ESA mandatory reconsideration's and appeals processes? Why do constituency offices collect for local food banks? Why do MP's arrange job's fair's in an effort to boost local employment?  Why do MP's seek private meetings with relevant minister's in effort to get a hardship, of whatever form, lifted from one of their constituent's? Why do MP's hold advice surgeries with the exact aim of helping people in their community? Would you like me to go on?
Of course there are bad MP's out there. There are bad employees in every employment in every walk of life. But try and lift your head out the mud and think about things a little bit more. They're are good people out there, trying their best to help those disadvantaged by 'the system'.
 

Why do why do. I'd be more inclined to ask that why, during one of the most important periods in this countries history. Most of them care more about their party and the possibility of their constituents voting them out than they do about what's best for the country and it's citizens. They've always been selfish c***s but the latest Brexit farce just highlights it.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

53 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

We already have one right wing Conservative party and we don't really need another one, the point of Labour under Corbyn is that it has returned that party to it's rightful place in the political spectrum, hence the reason they had an upsurge in support and indeed membership since the so called "left" took back control.

Personally I'm an SNP supporter and party member, however while I believe Corbyn to be pretty incompetent I'd still rather see a Labour party which stands for socialism, especially in these times of such extremes in wealth and wages that we are currently living through, otherwise there's no options for the ordinary working person who needs to see some sort of equality and change as opposed to looking forward to their next visit to the foodbank...........

Since 1900 there only have been 6 Labour governments, and they've held power for a grand total of 18 years. The last vaguely Socialist government the UK had, was that of Clement Atlee just after the war.

So if you mean 'it's rightful place in the political spectrum' is one of permanent, useless opposition, then I suppose you're correct.

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Bob Mahelp

[Londonwell]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

4 minutes ago, Londonwell said:

Maybe i am a moron. But if such a sweeping generalisation is true then why...
Do MP's and/or their staff champion cases of constituents unfairly treated by the Home Office and face deportation under some archaic ruling? Why do MP's  help countless people with disabilities through the minefield's of PIP/ESA mandatory reconsideration's and appeals processes? Why do constituency offices collect for local food banks? Why do MP's arrange job's fair's in an effort to boost local employment?  Why do MP's seek private meetings with relevant minister's in effort to get a hardship, of whatever form, lifted from one of their constituent's? Why do MP's hold advice surgeries with the exact aim of helping people in their community? Would you like me to go on?
Of course there are bad MP's out there. There are bad employees in every employment in every walk of life. But try and lift your head out the mud and think about things a little bit more. They're are good people out there, trying their best to help those disadvantaged by 'the system'.
 

Why do why do. I'd be more inclined to ask that why, during one of the most important periods in this countries history. Most of them care more about their party and the possibility of their constituents voting them out than they do about what's best for the country and it's citizens. They've always been selfish c***s but the latest Brexit farce just highlights it.

So that'll be a big- I've no idea what i'm talking about, then. Cool. 

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

10 minutes ago, Donathan said:

It's no coincidence that the only two people to have won a majority in the UK general election for over a quarter of a century are the most moderate Labour leader of all time and the most moderate Conservative leader of all time. Both had the economy doing reasonably well compared to similar countries in the early years of leadership but will be best remembered for a single fatal mistake (Iraq for Blair, Brexit for Cameron)

 

The UK electorate simply doesn't support old school socialism nor Thatcherite right wing policies. Labour can choose to be pragmatic to try and win back power, or stick with Corbyn and accept more years of Tory rule.

Exactly.

There is absolutely NO appetite for a socialist government in the UK, and there never has been for 70 years.

There are many aspects of socialism which are entirely commendable, if not desirable, but to gain power they'll have to be combined with a moderate, centrist approach.  At the moment Labour are heading for a long spell in opposition, which is doubly shameful because of the swing to the right that the Tories are taking.

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Bob Mahelp

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Exactly.

There is absolutely NO appetite for a socialist government in the UK, and there never has been for 70 years.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that, Corbyn led Labour to the biggest swing in vote share since 1945 in 2017.

[Londonwell]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that, Corbyn led Labour to the biggest swing in vote share since 1945 in 2017.

But looks to have blown any hope in the period since. Alas.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that, Corbyn led Labour to the biggest swing in vote share since 1945 in 2017.

Polling since the last GE would suggest that many Remain voters gave their vote to Labour under the mistaken impression that Labour were an anti-Brexit party.  There was also the 'Corbyn bounce' which attracted voters to the party because he was something new(sic) and different.

All that is gone now.

It beggers belief that Labour still can't overtake the worst government in UK history. I've no proof to back it up, but I belief that if a GE was held tomorrow then the Tories would strengthen their position.

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Exactly.

There is absolutely NO appetite for a socialist government in the UK, and there never has been for 70 years.

There are many aspects of socialism which are entirely commendable, if not desirable, but to gain power they'll have to be combined with a moderate, centrist approach.  At the moment Labour are heading for a long spell in opposition, which is doubly shameful because of the swing to the right that the Tories are taking.

 

We're heading back to Victorian times with the levels of poverty in this country. It's certainly reached levels that I've never seen in my lifetime and as such it would be wise to understand that there's a growing need to see a total reboot of the system and how wealth is distributed.

At the moment the gap is only widening and sooner or later we'll reach a tipping point with regards to homelessness and general poverty.

Remember, this is supposed to be the "good times" if you believe Government statistics, if that's so, then I really fear for the future...........

[NotThePars]

8 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Polling since the last GE would suggest that many Remain voters gave their vote to Labour under the mistaken impression that Labour were an anti-Brexit party.  There was also the 'Corbyn bounce' which attracted voters to the party because he was something new(sic) and different.

All that is gone now.

It beggers belief that Labour still can't overtake the worst government in UK history. I've no proof to back it up, but I belief that if a GE was held tomorrow then the Tories would strengthen their position.

 

 

You've done this, as far as I can see, for every bold assertion you've made. 

Given Labour pledged in the last election to accept the referendum result I have no idea how people voted for them under the mistaken impression they were an anti-Brexit party. They still increased their vote by an unprecedented amount. 

 

I've said this loads of times but I don't see how you can't fling the same accusations made at Corbyn's Labour's electability back at the independence campaign. Every day Brexit is a shambles and the polls don't shift. Yes were campaigning against a godawful campaign in Better Together and still lost. Both have similar margins for victory and both are surely starting at a much better position than they were before. Both are battling a hostile media climate and both are battling against a long held unchallenged consensus although ofc the Union is 312 years old to Thatcherite economic orthodoxy's 30+.