What is the point of Labour ?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I’d rather have a Corbyn government than a Tory one.  FWIW, it’s worth remembering that the next U.K. government will be Labour led or Conservative led.  There’s lots of folk who ignore that reality.
 

Im indifferent to whichever is the choice, both will do nothing to improve things for Scotland.
I do remember this, which is why I want indy so badly.

[Antlion]

Would a Corbyn government include the DUP member for Vauxhall?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I genuinely want to know exactly who this “reasonable opposition” are, how they would’ve fought the election and how they would’ve galvanised the demographics that turned out last year.

Well for a start they wouldn’t be constantly at each others throats?

Also see the SNP for how to put together an opposition, if Labour had half the political ability of the latest SNP parliamentarians then we possibly would have had the chance to stop brexit.

Ive already said that a new centre left party devoid of the poison that is Labour careerism would be very appealing to a broad spectrum of the electorate. I find it unpalatable to consider voting for a party full of careerists, oxbridge educated middle class toffs who go about calling each other comrade and think singing the red flag at their annual jolly keeps them in touch with the working man, all the while being propped up by unions with similar influence to industry bodies with the conservatives.

[pandarilla]

Im indifferent to whichever is the choice, both will do nothing to improve things for Scotland.
I do remember this, which is why I want indy so badly.

What are you talking about?

Labour governments in the past have done an awful lot for the people of Scotland. Why would you think that would not be possible again?

[git-intae-thum]

3 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

What are you talking about?

Labour governments in the past have done an awful lot for the people of Scotland. Why would you think that would not be possible again?

Lol

[pandarilla]

I've never heard this one answered. They gleefully condemn the black, poor and handicapped to death without a care - but by jove don't they just love being altruistic toward the Jocks?

I think it would be the symbolic defeat that would be hard to take for many people. There's a lot of little Englander mentality but the empire was built by the whole of the UK - and that's understood by the British establishment.

Losing Scotland would be a crushing rejection (even decent English folk would naturally see it as a rejection on some level).

There's also so many ties to Scotland that the wealthy would struggle to replace (armed bases for one).

Scotland's oil obviously contributes well and I reckon we probably just about pay our way overall. But away from the financial impact it's more about the psychological impact on brand uk, and how it's seen globally.

[Detournement]

4 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

Lol

Lol NHS. Lol decent housing. Lol employment rights.

[NotThePars]

Well for a start they wouldn’t be constantly at each others throats?

Also see the SNP for how to put together an opposition, if Labour had half the political ability of the latest SNP parliamentarians then we possibly would have had the chance to stop brexit.

Ive already said that a new centre left party devoid of the poison that is Labour careerism would be very appealing to a broad spectrum of the electorate. I find it unpalatable to consider voting for a party full of careerists, oxbridge educated middle class toffs who go about calling each other comrade and think singing the red flag at their annual jolly keeps them in touch with the working man, all the while being propped up by unions with similar influence to industry bodies with the conservatives.

I imagine the infighting and careerist element will be purged when mandatory reselection is brought in. I would be amazed if people like Jess Phillips, John Woodcock or Kate Hoey will be selected to stand next time.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I imagine the infighting and careerist element will be purged when mandatory reselection is brought in. I would be amazed if people like Jess Phillips, John Woodcock or Kate Hoey will be selected to stand next time.

It’d be good if that happens. Will just need to wait and see, Hoey etc may be popular at constituency level?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Lol NHS. Lol decent housing. Lol employment rights.

Would that be the employment rights enshrined in the EU legislation Labour are abstaining the shit out of retaining?
The same NHS in Scotland where several buildings are in PFI debt? The same NHS Labour committed to £10bn of PFI debt for hospitals which only cost £2bn to deliver? Thats good?

[Granny Danger]

It astounds me that otherwise intelligent posters can’t differentiate between a Labour and Tory government; particularly a Corbyn government.

It also astounds me that otherwise intelligent posters can’t differentiate between wanting Independence and actually having it.

  

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

It astounds me that otherwise intelligent posters can’t differentiate between a Labour and Tory government; particularly a Corbyn government.
It also astounds me that otherwise intelligent posters can’t differentiate between wanting Independence and actually having it.
  

No I can differentiate between the nature of each party however I see no difference in the damage they will do driving towards brexit, i’ve been pretty clear about this.

[pandarilla]

No I can differentiate between the nature of each party however I see no difference in the damage they will do driving towards brexit, i’ve been pretty clear about this.

The effects of Brexit are still, to a certain extent, unknown. Don't get me wrong, I voted to remain.

 

But some of the scare stories before the referendum threatened carnage from the day after a leave vote. Similar threats were made regarding a yes vote in the Scottish referendum.

 

I think there will be huge impacts, but a lot of it will be unknown consequences - and some of them could be positive.

 

[welshbairn]

30 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

The effects of Brexit are still, to a certain extent, unknown. Don't get me wrong, I voted to remain.

 

But some of the scare stories before the referendum threatened carnage from the day after a leave vote. Similar threats were made regarding a yes vote in the Scottish referendum.

 

I think there will be huge impacts, but a lot of it will be unknown consequences - and some of them could be positive.

 

The only potential positives I've heard from Brexiteers are better trade deals. I just don't understand how an economy worth about 10% of the EU would have the leverage to negotiate better deals than they do. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by welshbairn

[Loondave1]

It astounds me that otherwise intelligent posters can’t differentiate between a Labour and Tory government; particularly a Corbyn government.
It also astounds me that otherwise intelligent posters can’t differentiate between wanting Independence and actually having it.
  

The fact that they see a Corbyn Govt and the current Govt as interchangeable merely proves that a lot of posters on here have a pretty thin veneer of intelligence. Pep just says "champ" a lot to actually prove this theory of mine. The actual cause of the disdain for Corbyn is the threat a Labour Govt under him poses to the success of Indy2 and losing the handy Tory bogeyman at Westminster. Corbyn has faults like any human being but he's light years ahead of most in decency and actually appears to inhabit the same world as the "ordinary" people do. Indy2 is a no hoper as many on here are beginning to realise. At best a mistimed effort and the end of Sturgeon and the long grass for Indy. P&B land is delusional and viewing the mood in the populace through it is a bit ridiculous really and can only lead to the disappointment of finding out the real world isn't always in tune with your own version of it.

[DAFC.]

29 minutes ago, Stinky Bone said:

Going by what I have heard on the news the past few months, I cannot see brexit being a positive thing.  Companies seem to be relocating and are fearful of investing in the uk. 

The only positive outcome I can see would be more people wanting an Independent Scotland. 

Which hasn't happened so far and doesn't look like happening. 

I'm a Yes voter, but people need to accept that Brexit just isn't as big a deal for Scots voters as Indy backers think, although it should be tbf as it is a total fucking disaster. 

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, DAFC. said:

...I'm a Yes voter, but people need to accept that Brexit just isn't as big a deal for Scots voters as Indy backers think, although it should be tbf as it is a total fucking disaster. 

1

The way this is heading at the moment independence in the EU would put a hard border with passport controls and customs checks on the Solway and Tweed. There's no way you are going to get 50% + for that any time soon, so Scotland is like a Siamese twin being forced to move around at the whim of a conjoined sibling with severe special needs because the risk of separation is just too high.

[pandarilla]

The bogeyman/woman will always be the same at westminster, whether red or blue they do not have Scotland's interests at heart.  If the bogeyman corbyn were to win a general election, then the Scots that voted for him must by definition be happy to be subservient to westminster rule.  Then after a few years the bogeyman/woman of the tories will rear its ugly snotters to spread its ghastly phlegm over the people of Scotland yet again.  It will keep going on round and round in circles.
 

Happy to be subservient? Come on to f**k.

[John Lambies Doos]

I think it would be the symbolic defeat that would be hard to take for many people. There's a lot of little Englander mentality but the empire was built by the whole of the UK - and that's understood by the British establishment.

Losing Scotland would be a crushing rejection (even decent English folk would naturally see it as a rejection on some level).

There's also so many ties to Scotland that the wealthy would struggle to replace (armed bases for one).

Scotland's oil obviously contributes well and I reckon we probably just about pay our way overall. But away from the financial impact it's more about the psychological impact on brand uk, and how it's seen globally.

Kind of seen globally as England, therefore nothing changes. Perception being reality and all that.

[NotThePars]

Back on topic.  Here is an idea.
What if Scottish labour break away from their london masters and form a TRUE Scottish Labour party, one that actually cares about the Scottish people and recognises Independence as the way forward, backs the SNP in their fight against westminster rule and promotes the Independence line, instead of colluding with the tories to stifle Scotland's interests. 
Then once Independence is secured, we can have the SNP and the "New True Scottish Labour" as the main political parties in Scotland that have the Scottish peoples interests at heart.  For the conservatives out there, we could also have a Scottish conservative party along the same lines.  All parties acting in the best interests of Scotland, not westminster. 
Is it that crazy an idea?

They’d be skint.