What is the point of Labour ?

[NotThePars]

But why should they work for the UK when they dont believe in it?

I genuinely would like to see those areas which are the staunchest pro brexit areas hit the hardest by the economic impact, but they won’t be. Why should I strive as a pro indy supporter to try and make things better post second no vote for people who don’t have a clue and voted for a xenophobic, economically disastrous brexit? I think there has to come a time when we say f**k it the bad guys have won and that would be my reaction if a second indy ref were to fail. Holding out hope for 1 out of every 4 governments to be labour (and then hope that its not a right wing labour or moronic Corbyn led labour) doesnt really seem like much of a consolation prize.

Probably because much of the people that will be suffering voted the same way as you and tried just as, if not harder, to get independence. If you’re that comfortable off that you can stop giving a shit without it affecting your life then fair enough but that’s not the case for millions of other people.

[welshbairn]

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Probably because much of the people that will be suffering voted the same way as you and tried just as, if not harder, to get independence. If you’re that comfortable off that you can stop giving a shit without it affecting your life then fair enough but that’s not the case for millions of other people.

Ok but if your political aim is indy and a second no in 5/6 years comes in why bother? If people are too blind to see that staying in the UK post brexit, under the tories or Corbyn would be a shit storm then perhaps they deserve what they get? I see your point about those who would be in that perhaps 49% who voted yes, but ultimately you have to draw the line somewhere and I think following a second no that’s where I personally would draw the line and stop giving a shit, I know some would see it as childish but tbh I’d really not give a shit anymore if people put the politics of the orange order, sdl, ukip, britain first, BNP and tories above what could actually be a positive outcome for Scotland. You can only lead a horse to water, cant make it drink, but if you lead a horse to water more than once despite it needing a drink then whats the point in devoting your life to helping it get water?

[Peppino Impastato]

4 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Ok but if your political aim is indy and a second no in 5/6 years comes in why bother? If people are too blind to see that staying in the UK post brexit, under the tories or Corbyn would be a shit storm then perhaps they deserve what they get? I see your point about those who would be in that perhaps 49% who voted yes, but ultimately you have to draw the line somewhere and I think following a second no that’s where I personally would draw the line and stop giving a shit, I know some would see it as childish but tbh I’d really not give a shit anymore if people put the politics of the orange order, sdl, ukip, britain first, BNP and tories above what could actually be a positive outcome for Scotland. You can only lead a horse to water, cant make it drink, but if you lead a horse to water more than once despite it needing a drink then whats the point in devoting your life to helping it get water?

Brilliant post man fkn poetic.  Before indyref I gave not much of a shit and was diseganed, interested in politics but only as an amused observer.  Indyref made Scotland matter for the first time ever, made working class Scottish people important.  If it's another no I'm done.  Will not vote or take an interest.  If we decide to let another country determine life here let them get on with it.

[harry94]

4 hours ago, Peppino Impastato said:

That's utter shite.  Corbyn is union at all costs just as much as mundell or Davidson, and has amply proven this.  He does not keep his mouth shut on it he is vocally opposed to it.

You Corbyn fans are just fantasists who pretend things are the way you want them to be.  Corbyn is a British nationalist.

I'm certainly not a Corbyn fan but you're just resorting to infantile namecalling. He's expressed on multiple occasions that if the Scottish people want a referendum, he thinks Westminster should not object.

He's certainly in favour of retaining the union and argues that with the current plans the Scottish people will be poorer, even than under the most right wing Conservative government. This is a very common point raised by the no campaign that must be countered in a factual way and it's no use just equating everyone you don't like together because these are the points that really need to be addressed.

[Peppino Impastato]

4 minutes ago, harry94 said:

I'm certainly not a Corbyn fan but you're just resorting to infantile namecalling. He's expressed on multiple occasions that if the Scottish people want a referendum, he thinks Westminster should not object.

He's certainly in favour of retaining the union and argues that with the current plans the Scottish people will be poorer, even than under the most right wing Conservative government. This is a very common point raised by the no campaign that must be countered in a factual way and it's no use just equating everyone you don't like together because these are the points that really need to be addressed.

The poster I was replying to said Corbyn keeps his mouth shut on independence.  That's simply not true, he has made many statements expressing his opposition to it.  Which you reiterate.

I don't give a fk what he argues he knows literally nothing about Scotland and cares even less, he doesn't even know we have our own legal system FFS.  He's a British nationalist.

[harry94]

Just now, Peppino Impastato said:

The poster I was replying to said Corbyn keeps his mouth shut on independence.  That's simply not true, he has made many statements expressing his opposition to it.  Which you reiterate.

I don't give a fk what he argues he knows literally nothing about Scotland and cares even less, he doesn't even know we have our own legal system FFS.  He's a British nationalist.

2

What is a British nationalist?

[DublinMagyar]

"Masters in politics"

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

But why should they work for the UK when they dont believe in it?
 

It's not working for the UK. It's working for pensioners who can't heat their homes, families who choose between food and clothes, vulnerable people who don't have the access to services they need. There is also a lot more than that but ending punitive austerity has to be the number one priority. The idea that nothing positive can be delivered on a UK level doesn't stack up with the history of the UK labour movement.

Right now it's a choice between fighting for achievable goals or waiting for the SNP to maybe call another referendum. I realise that some posters think there will be a referendum in the next couple of years but what if there's not?

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

It's not working for the UK. It's working for pensioners who can't heat their homes, families who choose between food and clothes, vulnerable people who don't have the access to services they need. There is also a lot more than that but ending punitive austerity has to be the number one priority. The idea that nothing positive can be delivered on a UK level doesn't stack up with the history of the UK labour movement.
Right now it's a choice between fighting for achievable goals or waiting for the SNP to maybe call another referendum. I realise that some posters think there will be a referendum in the next couple of years but what if there's not?
 

These issues will only get worse in a Britain under brexit. UK labour are unelectable, they had an open goal last year against May and absolutely fucked it because Corbyn is a complete car crash.

The SNP aren’t perfect but seem to be doing the best they can to subvert Tory Austerity. With the fact Labour seem hell bent on pushing through a no deal brexit with no consideration to devolved parliaments (owing to their abstention on key votes and voting with the tories on other matters like Trident) they’ve shown that they actually don’t offer any meaningful alternative.

We wont see an end to austerity in the UK because the tories will say its necessary for brexit to be a success and the mouth foaming masses will accept that to get rid of foreigners and straight bananas, its patently clear that this is the case, the English electorate sent a clear message by re-electing the Tories that this is what they want.

If there’s not a referendum in a few years we keep fighting for one, but if the people of Scotland turn their back on it whats the point in struggling on. I’ll accept that its not meant to be and do my best to look after me and my own, I dont identify as British, have no interest in Britain etc but if my side loses i’ll not be bothered about the damage that will happen to the UK under prolonged Tory rule or bungling uncle Jeremy’s rule either. Thats my point, it may appear defeatist, but I dont have much faith in the electorate of the UK or Scotland, right now the UK electorate appears to be the very definition of a nation of Turkeys voting for Christmas every single day.

If by some miracle a new Centre Left party emerges full of competent politicians not sullied by involvement with Labour, offering Scotland etc full federal status with access to the Single Market then I could possibly get behind that but both parties in the UK government (lets not count the Lib Dems they really don’t matter) see Scotland as an inconvenience and treat us with nothing but contempt I can’t see that happening.

Ask yourself this, the Tories and Labour whinge on about ‘subsidising Scotland’ etc, but these are people driven solely by money, Rees-Mogg moving his business interests to the EU for one show this, TM allowing her Husbands company to get access to privatised police infrastructure is another, then why would they seek to keep us around? These aren’t the sort of folks who just think its Jolly nice to be the UK, its because financially Scotland contributes a f**k load to the economy and that can be exploited to keep us down and creating this inferiority complex that most of us Scots have (even if its subconscious). Scots should be the proudest people on the planet, we have a wonderful country (which has its challenges but on the whole we fucking rock) which would be the envy of the world.

We would be a very successful independent country, able to shape our own future, not bound by a system specifically designed to keep us down. We’d have the balls to stand up to bullies like Trump, be able to shape EU legislation and agenda and be a force for good in the world. I’d love to be a part of that, wouldn’t you?

To reject independence a second time would be the most shameful act of self depreciation that the world would ever see and would signal the end for me in terms of the movement. I dont think its a particularly unreasonable position to take?

[Peppino Impastato]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

It's not working for the UK. It's working for pensioners who can't heat their homes, families who choose between food and clothes, vulnerable people who don't have the access to services they need. There is also a lot more than that but ending punitive austerity has to be the number one priority. The idea that nothing positive can be delivered on a UK level doesn't stack up with the history of the UK labour movement.

Right now it's a choice between fighting for achievable goals or waiting for the SNP to maybe call another referendum. I realise that some posters think there will be a referendum in the next couple of years but what if there's not?

 

In the UK

[Peppino Impastato]

1 hour ago, harry94 said:

What is a British nationalist?

What's a Scottish nationalist?

[Peppino Impastato]

36 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

These issues will only get worse in a Britain under brexit. UK labour are unelectable, they had an open goal last year against May and absolutely fucked it because Corbyn is a complete car crash.

The SNP aren’t perfect but seem to be doing the best they can to subvert Tory Austerity. With the fact Labour seem hell bent on pushing through a no deal brexit with no consideration to devolved parliaments (owing to their abstention on key votes and voting with the tories on other matters like Trident) they’ve shown that they actually don’t offer any meaningful alternative.

We wont see an end to austerity in the UK because the tories will say its necessary for brexit to be a success and the mouth foaming masses will accept that to get rid of foreigners and straight bananas, its patently clear that this is the case, the English electorate sent a clear message by re-electing the Tories that this is what they want.

If there’s not a referendum in a few years we keep fighting for one, but if the people of Scotland turn their back on it whats the point in struggling on. I’ll accept that its not meant to be and do my best to look after me and my own, I dont identify as British, have no interest in Britain etc but if my side loses i’ll not be bothered about the damage that will happen to the UK under prolonged Tory rule or bungling uncle Jeremy’s rule either. Thats my point, it may appear defeatist, but I dont have much faith in the electorate of the UK or Scotland, right now the UK electorate appears to be the very definition of a nation of Turkeys voting for Christmas every single day.

If by some miracle a new Centre Left party emerges full of competent politicians not sullied by involvement with Labour, offering Scotland etc full federal status with access to the Single Market then I could possibly get behind that but both parties in the UK government (lets not count the Lib Dems they really don’t matter) see Scotland as an inconvenience and treat us with nothing but contempt I can’t see that happening.

Ask yourself this, the Tories and Labour whinge on about ‘subsidising Scotland’ etc, but these are people driven solely by money, Rees-Mogg moving his business interests to the EU for one show this, TM allowing her Husbands company to get access to privatised police infrastructure is another, then why would they seek to keep us around? These aren’t the sort of folks who just think its Jolly nice to be the UK, its because financially Scotland contributes a f**k load to the economy and that can be exploited to keep us down and creating this inferiority complex that most of us Scots have (even if its subconscious). Scots should be the proudest people on the planet, we have a wonderful country (which has its challenges but on the whole we fucking rock) which would be the envy of the world.

We would be a very successful independent country, able to shape our own future, not bound by a system specifically designed to keep us down. We’d have the balls to stand up to bullies like Trump, be able to shape EU legislation and agenda and be a force for good in the world. I’d love to be a part of that, wouldn’t you?

To reject independence a second time would be the most shameful act of self depreciation that the world would ever see and would signal the end for me in terms of the movement. I dont think its a particularly unreasonable position to take?

Great post.  It's independence this time or fk it all forever.  This is a fight for the very soul of Scotland.

[Detournement]

This Nat reality again. Labour had an open goal? They were vilified by the media to an incredible extent and still returned a huge vote share. Unelectable? They are polling 41% again with incredibly biased media.

Saying it's independence or nothing isn't politics it's monomaniacal nationalism.  If you want independence that much you'd happily see Scottish kids go hungry if you don't get it then that is surely a long way from the inclusive nationalism the SNP talk about.

[Peppino Impastato]

Just now, Detournement said:

This Nat reality again. Labour had an open goal? They were vilified by the media to an incredible extent and still returned a huge vote share. Unelectable? They are polling 41% again with incredibly biased media.

Saying it's independence or nothing isn't politics it's monomaniacal nationalism.  If you want independence that much you'd happily see Scottish kids go hungry if you don't get it then that is surely a long way from the inclusive nationalism the SNP talk about.

Give it up HB you were centre right last guise, you've now adopted this Corbyn schtick as you are, like him, a British nationalist.

[JamieThomas]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Ask yourself this, the Tories and Labour whinge on about ‘subsidising Scotland’ etc, but these are people driven solely by money, Rees-Mogg moving his business interests to the EU for one show this, TM allowing her Husbands company to get access to privatised police infrastructure is another, then why would they seek to keep us around? 

I've never heard this one answered. They gleefully condemn the black, poor and handicapped to death without a care - but by jove don't they just love being altruistic toward the Jocks?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

This Nat reality again. Labour had an open goal? They were vilified by the media to an incredible extent and still returned a huge vote share. Unelectable? They are polling 41% again with incredibly biased media.

Saying it's independence or nothing isn't politics it's monomaniacal nationalism.  If you want independence that much you'd happily see Scottish kids go hungry if you don't get it then that is surely a long way from the inclusive nationalism the SNP talk about.

A Corbyn government would be even more unstable than the current Tory one, they’re like the peoples front of judea constantly battling internally about diversity policies and infighting about things the electorate couldnt give a f**k about.

 

If you can’t see that any reasonable opposition would have ousted May last year then i’m not sure you understand how politics works?

 

Would I think ‘f**k it’ and stop giving a toss about politics in the event of a second no, god yes, like I said you can’t make a horse drink if you lead it to water so if people vote for something thats going to f**k them socially, financially and shift the political ideology of the country even further right then let them. Its like banging your head against a brick wall and my head’s getting sore so yes there’s only so much you can take. Honestly arguing with folk like yourself is like someone complaining theyre hungry at a buffet.

 

I’d donate to my local foodbank and help out there because I fully predict the brexit clusterfuck that Labour and the Tories would merrily see us skip towards will cause a shit load more people to be reliant on them.

 

Why don’t you wake up and see that we’re being sold down the river?

[NotThePars]

A Corbyn government would be even more unstable than the current Tory one, they’re like the peoples front of judea constantly battling internally about diversity policies and infighting about things the electorate couldnt give a f**k about.
 
If you can’t see that any reasonable opposition would have ousted May last year then i’m not sure you understand how politics works?
 
Would I think ‘f**k it’ and stop giving a toss about politics in the event of a second no, god yes, like I said you can’t make a horse drink if you lead it to water so if people vote for something thats going to f**k them socially, financially and shift the political ideology of the country even further right then let them. Its like banging your head against a brick wall and my head’s getting sore so yes there’s only so much you can take. Honestly arguing with folk like yourself is like someone complaining theyre hungry at a buffet.
 
I’d donate to my local foodbank and help out there because I fully predict the brexit clusterfuck that Labour and the Tories would merrily see us skip towards will cause a shit load more people to be reliant on them.
 
Why don’t you wake up and see that we’re being sold down the river?

How does politics work then? All I saw was a vote share increase unprecedented since 1945, that was achieved in 8 weeks in the face of a hostile media. A vote share that saw Corbyn’s Labour poll numbers higher than every New Labour govt apart from 1997 against similarly rancid opposition.

I genuinely want to know exactly who this “reasonable opposition” are, how they would’ve fought the election and how they would’ve galvanised the demographics that turned out last year.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

A Corbyn government would be even more unstable than the current Tory one, they’re like the peoples front of judea constantly battling internally about diversity policies and infighting about things the electorate couldnt give a f**k about.

 

If you can’t see that any reasonable opposition would have ousted May last year then i’m not sure you understand how politics works?

 

Would I think ‘f**k it’ and stop giving a toss about politics in the event of a second no, god yes, like I said you can’t make a horse drink if you lead it to water so if people vote for something thats going to f**k them socially, financially and shift the political ideology of the country even further right then let them. Its like banging your head against a brick wall and my head’s getting sore so yes there’s only so much you can take. Honestly arguing with folk like yourself is like someone complaining theyre hungry at a buffet.

 

I’d donate to my local foodbank and help out there because I fully predict the brexit clusterfuck that Labour and the Tories would merrily see us skip towards will cause a shit load more people to be reliant on them.

 

Why don’t you wake up and see that we’re being sold down the river?

I’d rather have a Corbyn government than a Tory one.  FWIW, it’s worth remembering that the next U.K. government will be Labour led or Conservative led.  There’s lots of folk who ignore that reality.

 

[Mark Connolly]

17 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’d rather have a Corbyn government than a Tory one.  FWIW, it’s worth remembering that the next U.K. government will be Labour led or Conservative led.  There’s lots of folk who ignore that reality.

 

"Would sir rather be repeatedly kicked in the bollocks or have a red hot poker rammed up his arse? The bollocks? Excellent choice."