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Pyramidic

WoSFL Pyramid Deadline - SJFA or Club led?

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If the SJFA member clubs join the pyramid en masse, as TJ has suggested in his email then they're going to be joining a structure that has to have common regulations: registration, discipline etc. There just doesn't seem to be a role for the SJFA as a national body in this scenario. The junior regions, yes as they're the associations that may be running some of the regionalised leagues.

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On 10/07/2018 at 20:51, garrellburn said:

It would appear from audited accounts for March 2017 - March 2018 that TJ is on a salary of around £33k as he is the only full time employee of the SJFA. Other salaries and NIC amount to £7382, presumably some part time office assistance.

Income of £86711 includes an SFA grant of £42352 which pretty well covers all salaries of staff at Hampden.  Money from clubs (affiliation fees, fines, appeals, reinstatements) comes to just under £29k with around 40% coming from reinstatements. The other big expense for last year was £15k wasted on quadrangular tournament, if you like to look at in that way, It does only come round every four years though and i agree that it could almost be made to pay its way if the games had been played at more sensible times at venues which might have attracted decent crowds.  

Income of £86,711 = £42,352 comes from the SFA. £29,000 comes from the clubs. So the SJFA only generates around £16,000 from commercial/other income streams?  And the club income side might be dramatically slashed in order to enter the pyramid as well, doesn't look all that great.

 

 

 

 

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If someone could highlight Tom's achievements on his current curriculum vitae I would love to read it.

 

Personally as a manager i would not even let him do the rubs.

 

I do believe however that 90% of club committees are complicit in his performance by their lack of "growing a set" over the years.

 

I remember after the downfield fiasco that retention was not raised by a single member club at the agm

 

 

 

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If we take a step or two back - in 2005 a SFA working party was established comprising Tom Johnston, secretary of the Scottish Junior Football Association; George Peat, SFA vice president; Dick Shaw, Queen of the South secretary. They were looking at a number of issues including:

- four junior clubs being invited to participate in the Scottish Cup
- the pyramid system
- integration


There is a significant quote from TJ in The Herald on 19th March 2005:

Full integration remains some way off but Johnston believes the plan is long overdue.

He said: "A pyramid system can only be good and, if Inverness Caledonian Thistle and Peterhead can survive and prosper in the senior leagues, then I am confident our elite teams like Linlithgow Rose and Pollok could compete in the second or third division."

Source: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12396614.SFA_plan_points_way_to_pyramid_system/

 

If this is how TJ felt in 2005 why was the man saying in November 2009:

"I think the idea of a pyramid system is populist,” Tom Johnston, secretary of the Scottish Junior Football Association, says emphatically.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/junior-clubs-unlikely-to-square-the-circle-on-scottish-league-pyramid-system-nl0sv7w5267

 

What changed the position of TJ? Was he instructed by the Junior Club membership to change his negotiating stance?  Or did he receive new instructions from the SJFA Management Committee? Or was it reflecting the mindset of TJ in terms of job preservation? Or does it simply reflect political wranglings in the working party? I think this quote from John McBeth, the president of the SFA in 2005 is quite telling:

"John McBeth, the president of the SFA, revealed details of the groundbreaking plans to The Herald but admitted they must negotiate a political minefield before initiating changes."

 

I wonder how many political IEDs will be laid down in the 2018 negotiations?

Edited by Pyramidic

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Quote

Over the course of the summer the Juniors have seen a number of Clubs join the East Of Scotland League believing that this might provide a quicker entry to the pyramid system despite the fact that the Junior’s have also had discussions with the SFA and also look like joining the pyramid system from season 2019/20.

http://www.sconethistle.org/jaggies-news-plenty-to-cheer-about/

Don't think it's a belief if the clubs that moved are in the pyramid and the Juniors are not!

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1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

http://www.sconethistle.org/jaggies-news-plenty-to-cheer-about/

Don't think it's a belief if the clubs that moved are in the pyramid and the Juniors are not!

"Look like joining.....in 2019/20",   Scone may be in for a shock.

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1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

http://www.sconethistle.org/jaggies-news-plenty-to-cheer-about/

Don't think it's a belief if the clubs that moved are in the pyramid and the Juniors are not!

Thanks for updating us on this article.

Jaggies News – Plenty to cheer about
14th July 2018    

"Over the course of the summer the Juniors have seen a number of Clubs join the East Of Scotland League believing that this might provide a quicker entry to the pyramid system despite the fact that the Junior’s have also had discussions with the SFA and also look like joining the pyramid system from season 2019/20. With the Junior League’s being re-structured with the remaining teams, Scone now find themselves playing in the McBookie.com Premier league North along with last season’s Champions from the North: Dundee North End."

http://www.sconethistle.org/jaggies-news-plenty-to-cheer-about/

 

Personally, I think Scone are deluding themselves if they think that by staying in the Juniors would give a faster route into the Pyramid.

TJ has been unable to give us any detail on what he is negotiating for the East Region clubs. In my opinion this is one of the main stumbling blocks that he faces "in the real world". Time for some transparency in my view.

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Another TJ quote:

SJFA secretary Tom Johnston said: “The difference between ours (pyramid proposals) and BSC’s is we are in negotiation, in discussion, about it. It is not somebody with a shotgun picking holes in what is there just now and putting up proposals without any kudos.”

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/plans-breakaway-feeder-league-rock-11780100


I think that it is high time that TJ outlines the actual proposals that he has submitted to the SFA Pyramid Working Group.

It could just be that some of the Junior Club membership may have somewhat different goals and aspirations to TJ.

It is time IMO for some openness and transparency. Why is there all this secrecy at the moment?

In terms of "kudos" what could be better than TJ explaining to us what has been proposed by the SJFA and how it was received at the Pyramid Working Group meeting in early July. What are the main issues that need to be sorted out? Are there currently any stumbling blocks? Will these be addressed at the next meeting of the PWG? Has a date been fixed for the next meeting? What deadline is TJ working to?

Just keeping Clubs informed makes a huge difference.

Edited by Pyramidic

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Can anyone please exlain to me how the SJFA will sit within the SFA Pyramid?

I can understand that there can be a place for a WRJFA run league sytem (revamped as the WRFA) and a NRJFA run league system (revamped as the NRFA) within the SFA Pyramid.

However I cannot currently see a place for the SJFA and the ERJFA. Am I completely wrong on this issue?

The SJFA in my view is a lost cause - although I still make the case that they could offered the compromise of running national non league cup competitions under a new banner. The only way forward that I see for the ERJFA is for it to split with the northern part morphing into a Tayside FA and the southern clubs joining the EOSFL/EOSFA. Is TJ prepared to negotiate this element?

Please can TJ or other excecutive officers of the SJFA provide some clarity to the Junior Club membership as to what is going on.

Junior Clubs in my view deserve better.

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Pyramidic, I would suggest you stand very little chance of having such questions answered here. TJ would probably answer these questions if asked directly over the telephone or by email, maybe? 

The questions you ask are prudent and in an ideal world of transparency would already be answered but sadly that isn't what we are dealing with. 

This being said, as I have suggested previously, there can be no place for jobs on honorary status. All future positions in any set up should be based on the individual merits of applicants after a robust process. Having an interview and getting appointed in 1999 should not guarantee someone a position in any new organisation in 2018....

Edited by G4Mac

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1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

Can anyone please exlain to me how the SJFA will sit within the SFA Pyramid?

I can understand that there can be a place for a WRJFA run league sytem (revamped as the WRFA) and a NRJFA run league system (revamped as the NRFA) within the SFA Pyramid.

However I cannot currently see a place for the SJFA and the ERJFA. Am I completely wrong on this issue?

The SJFA in my view is a lost cause - although I still make the case that they could offered the compromise of running national non league cup competitions under a new banner. The only way forward that I see for the ERJFA is for it to split with the northern part morphing into a Tayside FA and the southern clubs joining the EOSFL/EOSFA. Is TJ prepared to negotiate this element?

Please can TJ or other excecutive officers of the SJFA provide some clarity to the Junior Club membership as to what is going on.

Junior Clubs in my view deserve better.

He is keeping the Junior clubs in the loop to an extent and is still pursuing Tier 6. Since he hasn't received a hard no he's obviously still trying to get that deal. With these negotiations happening around, at best, monthly meetings there likely isn't anything further to bring up.

And if I had been a club representative that had received that email, I would of replied asking for further details. I'm sure some club representatives interested in the issue did just that. If not and the clubs are happy to just let TJ roll with it and not engage in the process by questioning it that's on them. This is a two way street after all.

End of the day keeping the SJFA membership informed and the PnB membership informed are two very different things.

 

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6 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

He is keeping the Junior clubs in the loop to an extent and is still pursuing Tier 6. Since he hasn't received a hard no he's obviously still trying to get that deal. With these negotiations happening around, at best, monthly meetings there likely isn't anything further to bring up.

And if I had been a club representative that had received that email, I would of replied asking for further details. I'm sure some club representatives interested in the issue did just that. If not and the clubs are happy to just let TJ roll with it and not engage in the process by questioning it that's on them. This is a two way street after all.

End of the day keeping the SJFA membership informed and the PnB membership informed are two very different things.

 

Scott Campbell is the boy at The S*n is he no, maybe he could have asked him a few kinda meaningful questions but then again he never does in case he upsets him.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Scott Campbell is the boy at The S*n is he no, maybe he could have asked him a few kinda meaningful questions but then again he never does in case he upsets him.

 

 

I'm pretty sure he lifted the SJFA questionnaire results from here, which is how I became aware of him. When I was looking for the most recent TJ email about PWG goings on, I knew it would be easier checking Scott Campbell's twitter feed than searching through the forum.

Whenever i've seen a TJ quote in response to something it's the usual stock answer rather than anything insightful.

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Back in March the SJFA "drafted a paper to be discussed at their next management meeting looking at the pros and cons of a switch away from the current calendar."

It was reported that "discussions are at an early stage but up for debate is the prospect of the season running through May, June, July and August with March the likely start point."

SJFA chief Tom Johnston said: "Summer football is on our agenda right now and we have put together a paper looking at the pros and cons of moving season."

"That will be discussed at our next management meeting but it's not something that will happen overnight."

"We will continue to discuss the matter before putting it to the clubs."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/loony-joons-sjfa-chiefs-talks-12117301

 

Questions - Have the SJFA drafted a paper on integration within the SFA Pyramid? I would have thought this is a far greater priority. Have any Clubs seen TJ's paper on this important issue?

As a matter of interest how does Summer football fit in with the SFA Pyramid? Not very well in my view.

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A few extracts from an article written in The Scottish Sun in 2013.

SJFA secretary Johnston said:

“If they left to join the Highland or Lowland league they would no longer be members of the SJFA and wouldn’t be able to compete for the Emirates (Junior) Scottish Cup. That’s a big deal for our clubs, it’s our Holy Grail and something I think a lot of them would be very reluctant to give up.
If clubs go out at the top we get new teams in from the amateurs so I’d be confident if we did lose teams our grade would cope with it.
“There are a lot of good things going on at junior level just now — at the top end in particular I think we have a very competitive and vibrant product and we want to maintain our identidy whatever changes come along.
“We’ve always had the view the the principle of a pyramid, where it allows a team to go from the bottom to the top, is acceptable to us.
The costs of getting involved in a pyramid structure — especially if clubs want to get into the new Scottish League set-up — are quite extensive. I saw Annan saying the other week that it cost them £250,000 — that is way out the reach of any of our clubs.


If we give the situation a 2018 slant how could we have some Pyramid Tier 6 & 7 clubs from the West, North & East Junior Regions being eligible for the Junior Cup in 2019/20 while other clubs like Linlithgow Rose and Bo'ness United would be barred for being Senior Clubs? How would TJ be creating a level playing field? Anomosity and separatism would be rife in my opinion if a split membership is created.

What happens to the Junior Cup in the context of the SFA Pyramid? TJ appears to be very muted on this important issue. What is going to happen:

1. Will the Junior Cup be ditched on the basis that all clubs will be Senior?

2. Will only Junior Clubs be permitted to enter - creating a split in the Pyramid membership?

3. Will all SFA Pyramid Clubs below Tier 5 be permitted to enter - a major compromise and "bridge-building" concession?

4. Will a few clubs not transfer over to the Pyramid and play for the Junior Diddy Cup?

Or am I coming from the wrong direction on a rather confusing issue?

Edited by Pyramidic

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Is this one of those under cover situations? You seem very interested in what will happen to the sjfa and junior cup (almost too interested). 

You also want some form of middle of the road 'bridge' or compromise.  If the sjfa agree to join the pyramid they will be joining as a one, into a new grade, with a stringent running criteria already set in stone.... There will be no place for half way houses in the pyramid, for me it's an all in or not in at all kind of thing. 

The sjfa hold no aces up the sleeve and all other associations represented at the pwg know that. The set up will function, as it has done, without the junior teams coming in. Yes the juniors would make them stronger but what I get the feeling is that the sjfa think they are being sought out and class themselves as a bigger player than they are whereas the rest of the associations represented know it is the sjfa who are looking to join what is already a strong set up in the East and for some clubs in the West. The other associations hold the strongest position in this and if the juniors begin to give ultimatums about their position to join, the rest will walk away safe in the knowledge they can set up their own wosfl and junior clubs will move in time. 

Now if some separatists decide enough is enough and form a wosfl on their own and this is not sjfa led then this is another quite different prospect, probably the best for everyone really. The sjfa remain in charge of the sjfa albeit maybe a weaker version and the pyramid get what they want.... A wosfl to provide a feeder league in the West. 

Only time will tell, but what is possible currently is that TJ and the sjfa may be taking completely different information away from the pwg meetings than others do, but we will not know this until there has been a conclusion reached. 

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