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Pyramidic

WoSFL Pyramid Deadline - SJFA or Club led?

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2 hours ago, santheman said:

See this is what annoys me.

If you'received going to criticise an organization at least do some research on how it operates.

The Management Committee are elected by the CLUBS so if anyone is to blame for a decline it is them.

TJ applied for the post of Secretary was interviewed and got the job.

He ils an employee of an organisation and therefore has the same employment rights as any other employee.

What do you suggest, sack him for carrying out the instructions of the Management Committee  and the clubs (effectively his employers)

 

Nope read it back a page.... I know how it all works. I said this in response to a post that suggested TJ be given a role, along with the sjfa, at running cups in any new set up, I said that any post which is filled should have a formal process attached. 

And yes, if an individual, or group of individuals who are appointed do not meet the expectations of their roles they should have their performances reviewed and if required removed from the positions they hold.... That's how any business or organisation works.... If my performance at work was in the same bracket I'd have to get the finger out and improve my output, not blame others, same applies for the sjfa. 

And its far too easy to blame the clubs here. 

Edited by G4Mac

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1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

Nope read it back a page.... I know how it all works. I said this in response to a post that suggested TJ be given a role, along with the sjfa, at running cups in any new set up, I said that any post which is filled should have a formal process attached. 

And yes, if an individual, or group of individuals who are appointed do not meet the expectations of their roles they should have their performances reviewed and if required removed from the positions they hold.... That's how any business or organisation works.... If my performance at work was in the same bracket I'd have to get the finger out and improve my output, not blame others, same applies for the sjfa. 

And its far too easy to blame the clubs here. 

And in what way is TJ’s performance deserving of his removal when all he has been doing is operating under a mandate from the clubs given less than a couple of weeks ago

I think you overestimate his powers

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9 minutes ago, santheman said:

And in what way is TJ’s performance deserving of his removal when all he has been doing is operating under a mandate from the clubs given less than a couple of weeks ago

I think you overestimate his powers

There have been posts suggesting that he has been ineffective in the negotiations over the last five years,  never mind the last two weeks.

But I take your point about the clubs. There seems to have been a lot of grumbling (particularly about fixtures) but not many heads above the parapet.

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33 minutes ago, santheman said:

And in what way is TJ’s performance deserving of his removal when all he has been doing is operating under a mandate from the clubs given less than a couple of weeks ago

I think you overestimate his powers

Moving away from what he can't do because of constraints placed upon him, who is responsible for attracting sponsorship into the SJFA? Does that sit with the management committee?

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1 hour ago, santheman said:

And in what way is TJ’s performance deserving of his removal when all he has been doing is operating under a mandate from the clubs given less than a couple of weeks ago

I think you overestimate his powers

:blink:   :rolleyes:

 

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1 hour ago, santheman said:

And in what way is TJ’s performance deserving of his removal when all he has been doing is operating under a mandate from the clubs given less than a couple of weeks ago

I think you overestimate his powers

Unless anyone can tell me otherwise, I believe that not just TJ require to be moved out, not as a punishment (albeit the regression in recent times and lack of desire for change should have had a review long before now), but for the progression of the game. 

We can sit and play the he did, he said, they told me to game all night but sadly those who have overseen the game in more recent times require to be held accountable for their inaction and disregard for anything that would remotely change the functioning of the junior game (put them out of a position). 

In the environment you are trying to suggest exists there would be no person or group of people accountable and the clubs are to blame.... So why have a management committee  and secretary if they are not doing anything other than what the clubs want? (you may find that these gentleman hold much more power than you are suggesting and conduct things in another way than you are suggesting above). 

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10 hours ago, Stag Nation said:

There have been posts suggesting that he has been ineffective in the negotiations over the last five years,  never mind the last two weeks.

But I take your point about the clubs. There seems to have been a lot of grumbling (particularly about fixtures) but not many heads above the parapet.

All of the grumbling about fixtures has come from only one region (west) and has been repeatedly stated on here that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with TJ  although perhaps an change in policy with regard to postponed or replayed Scottish cup games would help.

As regards the failure to find a credible sponsor for the Scottish then it would seem that it just does not attract the sort of businesses who could inject a meaningful amount of money into it. Perhaps we overestimate the appeal of the competition to the general public. Outside of Scotland nobody has even heard of it, (despite the honourable gentleman representing the Kilmarnock and wherever parliamentary constituency mentioning it in the House of Commons recently). I do believe great efforts have been made to find a backer, but no takers unfortunately. If and when it does get opened up to all non league clubs then perhaps we might have a better chance of finding a sponsor.

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If TJ is the same guy that was there around 10 to 15 years ago then he has been a barrier to improving the Association and the member clubs. Any Association requires leaders who can foresee how to integrate new idea's into the system. There have been a improvements of course but not enough. The complete lack of challenge to TJ by the clubs in this respect has not helped several more interested in their own club only and not looking at the bigger picture.

If we say the SJFA lacked leadership then the same must be said for the SFA. They must have been aware of the problems with this Association and totally failed to address them. It is good that things are now progressing in a positive way.  A strong Non League organisation will lead to improvement's all the way up the chain with more interest in the competitions. Junior Football became stale many moons ago. However many great memories of it and many wonderful players and teams in its time.

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I can understand the huge disappointment of some respondents with the purported contribution of TJ to the regression of the Juniors and the lack of progress on very important issues such as full intergration into the SFA Pyramid. Worse still that integration over the last few years appears to have been actively stymied and obstructed.

A real world solution would now be to dissolve the SJFA and incorporate all clubs under the umbrella of the SFA. However, we all know that at the present time this is not going to happen given the historic structure that has been in place for many years and the general aversion to change.

The only way forward is to find a compromise and that concession in my book is for the SJFA to be rebranded to administer national non-league cup competitions.

The SFA and SJFA should be actively working together to sort out a compromise for the general good of Scottish Football which will remove this historic anachronism.

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16 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

I can understand the huge disappointment of some respondents with the purported contribution of TJ to the regression of the Juniors and the lack of progress on very important issues such as full intergration into the SFA Pyramid. Worse still that integration over the last few years appears to have been actively stymied and obstructed.

A real world solution would now be to dissolve the SJFA and incorporate all clubs under the umbrella of the SFA. However, we all know that at the present time this is not going to happen given the historic structure that has been in place for many years and the general aversion to change.

The only way forward is to find a compromise and that concession in my book is for the SJFA to be rebranded to administer national non-league cup competitions.

The SFA and SJFA should be actively working together to sort out a compromise for the general good of Scottish Football which will remove this historic anachronism.

The simple way forward is to form a completely independent West of Scotland Football League (and NoSFL), invite applicants and let the change happen naturally, as it will.

Not many of the existing senior clubs are interested in the Junior Cup, particularly the HFL.  The Southern Challenge Cup is open to LL, EoS, SoS and WoS when one is formed, that will satisfy the need for a semi-national competition for the time being.  Over time, perhaps a truly national competition can be started for all non-league clubs but it should not be an excuse for the SJFA to continue to exist. We should not be looking for excuses to shoehorn in another layer of blazerdome.

The SJFA should only continue to exist as a body outwith the Pyramid for those clubs who, for now, do not want to join the WoS , EoS or NoS.

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25 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The simple way forward is to form a completely independent West of Scotland Football League (and NoSFL), invite applicants and let the change happen naturally, as it will.

Not many of the existing senior clubs are interested in the Junior Cup, particularly the HFL.  The Southern Challenge Cup is open to LL, EoS, SoS and WoS when one is formed, that will satisfy the need for a semi-national competition for the time being.  Over time, perhaps a truly national competition can be started for all non-league clubs but it should not be an excuse for the SJFA to continue to exist. We should not be looking for excuses to shoehorn in another layer of blazerdome.

The SJFA should only continue to exist as a body outwith the Pyramid for those clubs who, for now, do not want to join the WoS , EoS or NoS.

You are right. I think that some Clubs will form a breakaway group over the next few months and establish the embryo of the independent West of Scotland Football League.

TJ IMO at the moment has the option of thwarting this by placing all his cards on the table to keep the new West Region pyramid intact.

Those cards should include "big compromises" - as well as those of "honesty" and "realism".

The problem is that I currently see no signs of openness and transparency and a new beginning. The recent brief statement indicates that we are being fed the same old gruel. I hope that I am wrong this time.

Edited by Pyramidic

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1 hour ago, tinto said:

If TJ is the same guy that was there around 10 to 15 years ago then he has been a barrier to improving the Association and the member clubs. Any Association requires leaders who can foresee how to integrate new idea's into the system. There have been a improvements of course but not enough. The complete lack of challenge to TJ by the clubs in this respect has not helped several more interested in their own club only and not looking at the bigger picture.

If we say the SJFA lacked leadership then the same must be said for the SFA. They must have been aware of the problems with this Association and totally failed to address them. It is good that things are now progressing in a positive way.  A strong Non League organisation will lead to improvement's all the way up the chain with more interest in the competitions. Junior Football became stale many moons ago. However many great memories of it and many wonderful players and teams in its time.

According to the roll of honour on the sjfa website, TJ has been Secretary since 1999.

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39 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

All of the grumbling about fixtures has come from only one region (west)

There was grumbling from the east about fixtures not being published soon enough near the end of last season.

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No one Barring junior clubs are overly interested by the junior cup, I don't see a need for it to be part of the pyramid, there are other cups that will suffice. 

What junior clubs will have to embrace is that they are joining or will be forming a new league set up and with this comes a different operating model. The old way hasn't worked for a considerable period so why allow it to have a place in any new structure. 

I also disagree wholeheartedly with jobs for old times sakes and meeting in any form of middle ground to keep someone in a role. New roles should be appointed on merit. If a company takes over another company, whose management have overseen years of decline, would that company keep those people in place or would they undertake a restructuring process? 

 

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No one Barring junior clubs are overly interested by the junior cup, I don't see a need for it to be part of the pyramid, there are other cups that will suffice. 
What junior clubs will have to embrace is that they are joining or will be forming a new league set up and with this comes a different operating model. The old way hasn't worked for a considerable period so why allow it to have a place in any new structure. 
I also disagree wholeheartedly with jobs for old times sakes and meeting in any form of middle ground to keep someone in a role. New roles should be appointed on merit. If a company takes over another company, whose management have overseen years of decline, would that company keep those people in place or would they undertake a restructuring process? 
 

If its to be incorporated within the pyramid it should be on an opt in basis, no club should be required to take part.

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No one Barring junior clubs are overly interested by the junior cup, I don't see a need for it to be part of the pyramid, there are other cups that will suffice. 

 


IF the SJFA were admitted to the pyramid as TJ has suggested,there would be no interest from EOSL clubs if invited to participate in the Scottish Junior Cup?.

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38 minutes ago, PRICEY said:

 


IF the SJFA were admitted to the pyramid as TJ has suggested,there would be no interest from EOSL clubs if invited to participate in the Scottish Junior Cup?.

 

Yep pricey there are already cups that teams within the eosfl participate in that fill the fixtures. My own personal view - I don't get the hype surrounding the junior cup, it seems to be the one thing some junior fans and clubs want to hang on to, but it isn't a huge selling point for me. 

Personally I dont think the sjfa as an association will be part of the pyramid (would be happy to say I was wrong if they are). 

As a question though - What is/would be the draw to the junior cup for clubs in the eosfl, LL and HL?

( for me all it does, along with other cups in the Juniors, is hold the entire season up with replayed ties) 

Edited by G4Mac

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2 hours ago, PRICEY said:

 


IF the SJFA were admitted to the pyramid as TJ has suggested,there would be no interest from EOSL clubs if invited to participate in the Scottish Junior Cup?.

Scottish Junior Cup in its present form probably not. Even for those former Juniors that may have an interest due to former ties, it might well be unworkable around other commitments.

You've also got to take into account by next year a decent number of EoS clubs will be SFA licenced and that could lead to a reworking of the SFA Scottish Cup format. That'd take up more dates and be more lucrative.

With more licenced clubs within the non-league set up, the greater the representation they will have in the SFA. This might increase the chances of a SFA backed subsidy for a national non-league competition since the South Challenge & North Challenge Cups were originally supported by the SFA financially. This new compeition again would likely be more attractive than the Scottish Junior Cup due to the financial side of it. So you could actually see the SFA inviting SJFA clubs into their new cup instead.

There was a time where the SJFA could have opened up their Scottish Cup to all the senior non-league teams and it would probably have been welcomed by most. That time looks to have past.

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3 hours ago, PRICEY said:

IF the SJFA were admitted to the pyramid as TJ has suggested,there would be no interest from EOSL clubs if invited to participate in the Scottish Junior Cup?.

Of course there would, but the key part of the way you have phrased your message is "IF". There's no obvious need for having two national associations at this point beyond keeping Tom Johnston in a job, so odds on the competition would be continued by a committee of the SFA and would be open to all clubs in semi-professional leagues at tier 6 and below.

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