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amigan

Promotion / relegation

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The play-off next season could be 3 x EoS Conference winners plus 1 x SoS, two semi-finals, the winners replace the bottom 2 in the LL.

If we have a situation where only 3 of the 4 clubs are Licenced, then you adjust the play-off to find the 2 best clubs out of the 3.   If only 2 of the 4 are Licenced, they go up automatically.  If only 1 or 0 are Licenced, then there is a reprieve for 15th place LL club, or both of them.  There are other ways to go about it as well.

This is no different to the situation as currently exists where no play-off takes place due to EoS and/or SoS winners not being Licenced, and should not be an excuse not to relegate 2 clubs and open up the LL and therefore the Pyramid.  It's a 16 team league afterall.

Will be disappointed if the LL stick to their guns, a wee bit of self-preservation and no recognition of the transformation of the EoS.

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1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

The play-off next season could be 3 x EoS Conference winners plus 1 x SoS, two semi-finals, the winners replace the bottom 2 in the LL.

If we have a situation where only 3 of the 4 clubs are Licenced, then you adjust the play-off to find the 2 best clubs out of the 3.   If only 2 of the 4 are Licenced, they go up automatically.  If only 1 or 0 are Licenced, then there is a reprieve for 15th place LL club, or both of them.  There are other ways to go about it as well.

This is no different to the situation as currently exists where no play-off takes place due to EoS and/or SoS winners not being Licenced, and should not be an excuse not to relegate 2 clubs and open up the LL and therefore the Pyramid.  It's a 16 team league afterall.

Will be disappointed if the LL stick to their guns, a wee bit of self-preservation and no recognition of the transformation of the EoS.

I guess until the fixtures are announced there's a chance something could be done. Once the EoS came out with their round robin to crown an overall champion I lost my bit of hope that something would be done for 2018/19.

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Surely the East of Scotland League would want to have an overall league champion?  That play-off system wouldn't allow for that, unless you also had a separate tournament for that.  I think the best solution if 2 promotion spots are available would be for the EoS to have a three-team round robin, with the winners going up automatically and the runners-up playing off against the SoS champions.

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6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

The play-off next season could be 3 x EoS Conference winners plus 1 x SoS, two semi-finals, the winners replace the bottom 2 in the LL.

If we have a situation where only 3 of the 4 clubs are Licenced, then you adjust the play-off to find the 2 best clubs out of the 3.   If only 2 of the 4 are Licenced, they go up automatically.  If only 1 or 0 are Licenced, then there is a reprieve for 15th place LL club, or both of them.  There are other ways to go about it as well.

This is no different to the situation as currently exists where no play-off takes place due to EoS and/or SoS winners not being Licenced, and should not be an excuse not to relegate 2 clubs and open up the LL and therefore the Pyramid.  It's a 16 team league afterall.

Will be disappointed if the LL stick to their guns, a wee bit of self-preservation and no recognition of the transformation of the EoS.

There is no doubt that it needs to open up but maximum pressure needs to be applied to the first SPFL through sticking with current relegation. 

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4 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Surely the East of Scotland League would want to have an overall league champion?  That play-off system wouldn't allow for that, unless you also had a separate tournament for that.  I think the best solution if 2 promotion spots are available would be for the EoS to have a three-team round robin, with the winners going up automatically and the runners-up playing off against the SoS champions.

There will need to be an EoS champion first to then play off against the SoS. 

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1 minute ago, Rab B Nesbit said:

There is no doubt that it needs to open up but maximum pressure needs to be applied to the first SPFL through sticking with current relegation. 

I don't see why the SPFL prom/rel situation should have any influence on the prom/rel situation at the other end of the table.

Afterall, if the SPFL agreed to auto relegate team 42, it still doesn't guarantee LL promotion, and you wont get any more concession than that as a next step.

 

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20 minutes ago, Rab B Nesbit said:

There is no doubt that it needs to open up but maximum pressure needs to be applied to the first SPFL through sticking with current relegation. 

Don't really see what this has to do with additional promotion opportunities to clubs in the EoS/SoS. If anything it has the potential to make things worse. There's likely to be more Club 42's that fall in the LL area and the HL champion has a 50/50 of winning with automatic promtion. That'll lead to more forced relegations on clubs in the LL in order stick with 16 clubs.

2015 - HL champion promoted/Club 42 relegated to HL

2016 - LL champion promoted/Club 42 relegated to LL

2017 - LL champion promoted/Club 42 relegated to LL

2018 - HL champion promoted/Club 42 relegated to LL/LL relegates an additional club

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I suspect quite strongly that auto-relegation from the SPFL and indeed, maybe a second relegation place will only come after some probably long-winded SPFL expansion occurs. Something like ~

Phase A (3 years) Two teams promoted to SPFL, no relegations; Starting with Championship, each SPFL Division is sequentially increased to 12 teams (playing a full double round-robin of 22 matches, then split like in Premiership, except each group of six only retains its own head-to-heads {10 results} before engaging in another double round-robin of a further 10 matches, totalling 32 games per season.)

Phase B (3 years) Two teams promoted to SPFL, no relegations; Starting with Championship, each SPFL Division is sequentially increased to 14 teams (playing a full double round-robin of 26 matches, then split like in Premiership, except each group of seven only retains its own head-to-heads {12 results} before engaging in another double round-robin of a further 12 matches, totalling 38 games per season.)

Phase C (3 years) Two teams promoted to SPFL, no relegations; Starting with Championship, each SPFL Division is sequentially increased to 16 teams (playing a full double round-robin of 30 matches.

Phase D (3 years) [possibly] Two teams promoted to SPFL, no relegations; Starting with Championship, each SPFL Division is sequentially increased to 18 teams (playing a full double round-robin of 34 matches.

This, in effect, would produce a 9/12 year moratorium on SPFL relegation, although playoffs as currently exist could continue with the winner of LL vs. HL 2nd.-placed teams challenging SPFL42/SPFL44/SPFL46...SPFL58.

Also, the LL at (the beginning of) this period needs expanding to 20 teams, playing in two parallel 10-team conferences; playing a full double round-robin of 18 matches, before splitting into top/bottom halves, each group of five only retains its own head-to-heads {8 results} and then the parallel top sub-conferences are recombined together (ditto, the parallel bottom sub-conferences) to play out a further 10 matches against only their parallel opponents, totalling 28 games per season. The HL might remain largely unchanged, although it really needs to negotiate its own feeder system asap.

 

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11 hours ago, Kernovian said:

I suspect quite strongly that auto-relegation from the SPFL and indeed, maybe a second relegation place will only come after some probably long-winded SPFL expansion occurs. Something like ~

Phase A (3 years) Two teams promoted to SPFL, no relegations; Starting with Championship, each SPFL Division is sequentially increased to 12 teams (playing a full double round-robin of 22 matches, then split like in Premiership, except each group of six only retains its own head-to-heads {10 results} before engaging in another double round-robin of a further 10 matches, totalling 32 games per season.)

Phase B (3 years) Two teams promoted to SPFL, no relegations; Starting with Championship, each SPFL Division is sequentially increased to 14 teams (playing a full double round-robin of 26 matches, then split like in Premiership, except each group of seven only retains its own head-to-heads {12 results} before engaging in another double round-robin of a further 12 matches, totalling 38 games per season.)

Phase C (3 years) Two teams promoted to SPFL, no relegations; Starting with Championship, each SPFL Division is sequentially increased to 16 teams (playing a full double round-robin of 30 matches.

Phase D (3 years) [possibly] Two teams promoted to SPFL, no relegations; Starting with Championship, each SPFL Division is sequentially increased to 18 teams (playing a full double round-robin of 34 matches.

This, in effect, would produce a 9/12 year moratorium on SPFL relegation, although playoffs as currently exist could continue with the winner of LL vs. HL 2nd.-placed teams challenging SPFL42/SPFL44/SPFL46...SPFL58.

Also, the LL at (the beginning of) this period needs expanding to 20 teams, playing in two parallel 10-team conferences; playing a full double round-robin of 18 matches, before splitting into top/bottom halves, each group of five only retains its own head-to-heads {8 results} and then the parallel top sub-conferences are recombined together (ditto, the parallel bottom sub-conferences) to play out a further 10 matches against only their parallel opponents, totalling 28 games per season. The HL might remain largely unchanged, although it really needs to negotiate its own feeder system asap.

 

I'll hazard a guess that none of that will happen and at some point the bottom SPFL club will be auto relegated and that will be as good as it gets for the foreseeable future.

In the meantime, the LL should lead the way and increase its rel/prom spots to two next season.  Their case for the SPFL further opening up is damaged by the fact they seem reluctant to open up themselves.

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14 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I don't see why the SPFL prom/rel situation should have any influence on the prom/rel situation at the other end of the table.

Afterall, if the SPFL agreed to auto relegate team 42, it still doesn't guarantee LL promotion, and you wont get any more concession than that as a next step.

The LL has already conceded enough ground on this. 1 down / possibly 2 while only possibly 1 from the SPFL down. Better to have the weight of 39 EoS clubs behind any further concession. 

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I think 2 down +/- 1 playoff from Lowland League will come - I suspect not from next season though, just because of the current lack of SFA licences of the majority of clubs in the EoSFL. Once there's a reasonable number of licenced clubs then there's really no argument.

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Just now, Rab B Nesbit said:

The LL has already conceded enough ground on this. 1 down / possibly 2 while only possibly 1 from the SPFL down. Better to have the weight of 39 EoS clubs behind any further concession. 

What have they conceded? It has always been 1 automatic relegation (if Licenced club available to replace),  it should now move to 2 automatic relegation spots given that there are 55 clubs potentially feeding into it next season, many of whom would add quality to the LL.

If the LL cannot demonstrate that they are willing to recognise the changing circumstances below them and open up more, then their case for asking the SPFL to do likewise is diminished.  As I said, what happens between then LL/HL/SPFL at the top end should have no bearing on what happens at the bottom end.

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6 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

What have they conceded? It has always been 1 automatic relegation (if Licenced club available to replace),  it should now move to 2 automatic relegation spots given that there are 55 clubs potentially feeding into it next season, many of whom would add quality to the LL.

If the LL cannot demonstrate that they are willing to recognise the changing circumstances below them and open up more, then their case for asking the SPFL to do likewise is diminished.  As I said, what happens between then LL/HL/SPFL at the top end should have no bearing on what happens at the bottom end.

Absolutely it should but there should be further ‘ventilation’ from the SPFL too. Why should the LL make further concessions first. As I’ve said already better to stand our ground and hopefully agree it all at the same time. 

Edited by Rab B Nesbit

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6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I think 2 down +/- 1 playoff from Lowland League will come - I suspect not from next season though, just because of the current lack of SFA licences of the majority of clubs in the EoSFL. Once there's a reasonable number of licenced clubs then there's really no argument.

Lack of licences & expectation that a WoS is on the cards changing whatever format gets put in place.

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8 minutes ago, Rab B Nesbit said:

Absolutely it should but there should be further ‘ventilation’ from the SPFL too. Why should the LL make further concessions first. As I’ve said already better to stand our ground and hopefully agree it all at the same time. 

I ask again, what has relegation spots got to do with SPFL spots?   all that happens is you create a bottleneck yourselves by refusing to relegate more than one club automatically, that isn't a very good example to set.  You either want a functioning Pyramid or you don't.

The SPFL may move to an automatic spot in the next season or two, I'd expect no more than that, but it still doesn't guarantee the LL a promotion spot. Why punish EoS and SoS (and potentialy WoS) clubs for that? 

It's all very disappointing that this thought process is circulating around the LL clubs, a lot of Junior clubs have placed faith in the Pyramid concept.

Edited by Burnie_man

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18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I ask again, what has relegation spots got to do with SPFL spots?   all that happens is you create a bottleneck yourselves by refusing to relegate more than one club automatically, that isn't a very good example to set.  You either want a functioning Pyramid or you don't.

The SPFL may move to an automatic spot in the next season or two, I'd expect no more than that, but it still doesn't guarantee the LL a promotion spot. Why punish EoS and SoS (and potentialy WoS) clubs for that? 

It's all very disappointing that this thought process is circulating around the LL clubs, a lot of Junior clubs have placed faith in the Pyramid concept.

And I’ll tell you again the LL is better to have the pressure of 39 EoS clubs behind them looking for change. 

Twist it round ... the LL may move to another relegation spot in a year or 2. Not that it’ll really affect my club but we’ve been in place waiting for 5 years not 2 weeks ... :) 

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It's laughable to claim 1 single relegation spot is a "concession". It's not at all, it's a pathetic low number. The absolute minimum should be 2 automatic relegation places now the EOS got stronger, and once a WOS has been established 3 seems more than reasonable to me.

It's pointless to say the SPFL should start. Opening up relegation from the LL should happen now, this increases the chance of automatic relegation from the SPFL. Now they can claim that the standard in the LL is too much of a drop for relegated teams. If the LL gets strengthened by strong ex-juniors, that argument disappears.

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31 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I ask again, what has relegation spots got to do with SPFL spots?   all that happens is you create a bottleneck yourselves by refusing to relegate more than one club automatically, that isn't a very good example to set.  You either want a functioning Pyramid or you don't.

The SPFL may move to an automatic spot in the next season or two, I'd expect no more than that, but it still doesn't guarantee the LL a promotion spot. Why punish EoS and SoS (and potentialy WoS) clubs for that? 

It's all very disappointing that this thought process is circulating around the LL clubs, a lot of Junior clubs have placed faith in the Pyramid concept.

So teams that put faith in the LL and pyramid 4/5 Years ago are now expected just to roll over, because the juniors have decided it’s actually ok to be in the pyramid?

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And I’ll tell you again the LL is better to have the pressure of 39 EoS clubs behind them looking for change. 

Twist it round ... the LL may move to another relegation spot in a year or 2. Not that it’ll really affect my club but we’ve been in place waiting for 5 years not 2 weeks ...  

You cannot seriously say that the LL may provide another relegation spot "in a year or two" that's absurd.

Looking at it objectively, opening up further spots and setting an example to the SPFL - particularly in light of the widespread media coverage of the Junior clubs moving to the Pyramid - can be used to your advantage for the same purpose, with a little bit of good PR thrown in. 

"It's great to see Junior clubs joining the Pyramid, as such we are happy to provide more promotion spots, Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg would strengthen the LL if promoted next year and we hope the SPFL reciprocates by reviewing the HL/LL promotion system to the SPFL" etc etc. 

What you're saying is you'd rather use the EoS as some form of pawn in a battle of wills instead and it opens the LL up to accusations of the same self preservation the SFL/SPFL have displayed in the past.  Your last few words perhaps betrays the fact that not everyone is happy that the Juniors are moving.  It's all sad to see.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I ask again, what has relegation spots got to do with SPFL spots?   all that happens is you create a bottleneck yourselves by refusing to relegate more than one club automatically, that isn't a very good example to set.  You either want a functioning Pyramid or you don't.

The SPFL may move to an automatic spot in the next season or two, I'd expect no more than that, but it still doesn't guarantee the LL a promotion spot. Why punish EoS and SoS (and potentialy WoS) clubs for that? 

It's all very disappointing that this thought process is circulating around the LL clubs, a lot of Junior clubs have placed faith in the Pyramid concept.

I've asked before about what SPFL relegation spots have to do with LL relegation spots.  Never really seen a good answer.

The LL needs to set an example for the pyramid.  The EoS have been brilliant this season.  They could easily have forced clubs to join at tier seven but they haven't.  Time for the LL to do the same.  They will benefit in the long run when they have more of big ex juniors in the league.

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