Promotion / relegation

[ShrimpLok]

1 hour ago, bendan said:

I would be astonished if the SoS can remain at tier 6, unless it absorbs the West clubs. It only actually covers south west Scotland, rather than the south of Scotland, as the south east of Scotland is covered by the EoS, so it's already part of the area that must be covered by any WoS league.

I'd fix the relegation spots at 3. If the LL gets a relegated team from the SPFL but doesn't promote anyone, then only the two respective champions would get promoted.

I quite like the idea of small regional leagues like SoS and North Caledonian League remaining at Tier 6. That way occasional ambitious clubs have the oppportunity to go straight up to the LL but the majority can remain where they are with minimal travelling. 

It would need the SoS to be open to getting less promotion opportunities than the other Tier 6 leagues but that doesn’t seem a sticking point. 

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, bendan said:

I'd fix the relegation spots at 3. If the LL gets a relegated team from the SPFL but doesn't promote anyone, then only the two respective champions would get promoted.

Trouble is you don't know if the underlined has occurred or not till SPFL2 v HL/LL playoff 2nd leg is complete (i.e. until Cowdenbeath 2-1 Cove this season)... in turn, when do you then contest the bold's playoffs or round-robin.

You have to correct afoot LL, not atop tier 6.

[bendan]

I'd automatically promote the EoS and WoS champions. The third new team in the LL would either be a relegated SPFL team or the winner of an EoS runner-up v WoS runner-up play-off. I'd hope there will be automatic relegation from SPFL2, so whether a place was available would be known at the end of the LL/HL playoff at the latest. 

I realise there's still uncertainty, but I'd prefer it at the runners up spots at tier 6 rather than at the foot of tier 5. I think relegation spots should be clear cut.

[GordonS]

24 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Trouble is you don't know if the underlined has occurred or not till SPFL2 v HL/LL playoff 2nd leg is complete (i.e. until Cowdenbeath 2-1 Cove this season)... in turn, when do you then contest the bold's playoffs or round-robin.

You have to correct afoot LL, not atop tier 6.

Yup. The EoSFL was supposed to finish on 28 April, and most clubs were done by 5 May. The SPFL play-off second leg was on 12 May - you'd need to wait until then before knowing if a play-off would even be required. Not impossible but a pain in the bahookie for the clubs involved. 

[HibeeJibee]

It's also a expectation/disappointment thing. Think of the dynamics if it applied in the current context:

Under the current system everyone in LL tried to avoid the bottom 2; there was a race up to the end with Dalbeattie and Vale; it was Vale who were 2nd bottom - they felt relief when Cove lost, but would hardly have felt particular injustice if Cove had won and they'd gone down as feared.

Under the alternative system everyone knew Hawick were last long before the end; nothing else to play for. Threave & Kelty either had to wait weeks to discover if there'd to be a playoff at all - then contest it very late if Cove lost, or feel desolation if Cove won and it was cancelled - or else played it in advance, Kelty win 10-0, but leaving the field hear Cove won so it's all for nought.

Clearly the latter system is totally untenable. You can give someone a joyous lift by reprieving them from relegation; you can't give someone a crushing blow by removing their promotion.

[bendan]

8 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

 

Clearly the latter system is totally untenable. You can give someone a joyous lift by reprieving them from relegation; you can't give someone a crushing blow by removing their promotion.

I don't think you've actually read what I've written. I'm suggesting automatic promotion for the champions of a WoSL and the EoSL. No playoffs for them. There's no reason why the season couldn't run a little later than the regular LL season. I am suggesting a play off between the runners up in both leagues to fill an automatic third relegation spot.

I realise neither situation is ideal, but I personally found the VoL situation a bit ridiculous. You ought to know at the end of your last match what league you'll be playing in. Neither runner up would have earned promotion only to have it snatched away. They would still have to win a play off, and the prize would be known. Using current season dates as a reason why future seasons wouldn't work is a bit odd. They can be changed. 

I didn't make my suggestion based on the current setup because it seems so obviously untenable longer term that it hardly seems worth discussing.

[Marten]

Alternatively, you can move to something like 2 automatic relegation + 2 relegation play-off spots (only once a WoS has been established obviously). Then you can have the 2 runners up from EOS/WOS playing numbers 14 and 13 of LL at the same time as the SPFL2 play-off. What happens after depends on the outcome of the SPFL 2 play-off:

• if there is no promotion/relegation with the SPFL, or the promoted club is from the same league as where the relegated club goes into: both winners play in the LL
• if the HL champions get promoted and an LL area team gets relegated: the 2 winners will play a final on a neutral venue for 1 LL spot
• if the LL champions get promoted and an HL area team gets relegated: the 2 winners are both in the LL, the 2 losers will play a final on a neutral venue for 1 LL spot

[Marten]

10 hours ago, ShrimpLok said:

I quite like the idea of small regional leagues like SoS and North Caledonian League remaining at Tier 6. That way occasional ambitious clubs have the oppportunity to go straight up to the LL but the majority can remain where they are with minimal travelling. 

It would need the SoS to be open to getting less promotion opportunities than the other Tier 6 leagues but that doesn’t seem a sticking point. 

Fair enough what you said, but too much of a difference in standard between parallel leagues at the same tier is not going to help I think. With 3 leagues at tier 6 feeding into the LL, the SOS winners will always have to go through a play-off with an EOS or WOS team, who have played far stronger opposition all season and just that experience will give them a major advantage. Compare it to Australia in the WC qualifying before they moved to Asia. They battered everyone in Oceania and (especially in the 2000's / late 1990's) had a decent team. But they usually fell at the last hurdle because they were simply not used to playing decent opposition and their opponents were. That has proven to be a major issue for them.

I think it's better if (better) SOS clubs are given the chance to join the WOS. The rest can be at tier 7 in a feeder to the WOS. Ambitious clubs can then have a chance to grow towards the LL, by getting into the WOS and developing further towards the LL rather than having to negotiate a "glass ceiling".

[bendan]

3 minutes ago, Marten said:

Alternatively, you can move to something like 2 automatic relegation + 2 relegation play-off spots (only once a WoS has been established obviously). Then you can have the 2 runners up from EOS/WOS playing numbers 14 and 13 of SOS at the same time as the SPFL2 play-off. What happens after depends on the outcome of the SPFL 2 play-off:

• if there is no promotion/relegation with the SPFL, or the promoted club is from the same league as where the relegated club goes into: both winners play in the LL
• if the HL champions get promoted and an LL area team gets relegated: the 2 winners will play a final on a neutral venue for 1 LL spot
• if the LL champions get promoted and an HL area team gets relegated: the 2 winners are both in the LL, the 2 losers will play a final on a neutral venue for 1 LL spot

I think you mean LL rather than SoS!

Your suggestion would be interesting too, and it has the added advantage of ensuring a meaningful play off takes place no matter what. 

The current system minimises excitement/media interest by having the issue decided as a by-product of another match. 

[Marten]

2 minutes ago, bendan said:

I think you mean LL rather than SoS!

Your suggestion would be interesting too, and it has the added advantage of ensuring a meaningful play off takes place no matter what. 

The current system minimises excitement/media interest by having the issue decided as a by-product of another match. 

Oops... I edited my post now.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

7 hours ago, Marten said:

Alternatively, you can move to something like 2 automatic relegation + 2 relegation play-off spots (only once a WoS has been established obviously). Then you can have the 2 runners up from EOS/WOS playing numbers 14 and 13 of LL at the same time as the SPFL2 play-off. What happens after depends on the outcome of the SPFL 2 play-off:

• if there is no promotion/relegation with the SPFL, or the promoted club is from the same league as where the relegated club goes into: both winners play in the LL
• if the HL champions get promoted and an LL area team gets relegated: the 2 winners will play a final on a neutral venue for 1 LL spot
• if the LL champions get promoted and an HL area team gets relegated: the 2 winners are both in the LL, the 2 losers will play a final on a neutral venue for 1 LL spot

What do they do when this happens in England?  I don't know btw but I think youl find your answer there as its been on the go for a while now

[Marten]

43 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

What do they do when this happens in England?  I don't know btw but I think youl find your answer there as its been on the go for a while now

In England, the highest regionalised leagues are the National League North/South. As opposed to Scotland, England doesn't have a fixed boundary between the 2. There are 44 teams at that level, with the 22 northernmost ones going in the north division and the 22 others in the south division. In Scotland, I don't think that will currently work. The northernmost LL team is Kelty Hearts, the closest HL team to them is Cove Rangers (ignoring Fort William who are further south, but they are outliers and likely to drop into tier 6 once there is a proper pyramid in the north). It's pretty clear that putting Kelty in the HL or Cove in the LL is not going to become popular. We'll first need some Tayside teams going into the HL and some Perthshire/North Fife teams to go into the LL to be realistically able to use such a system.

Even then, I'm not sure the system will work in Scotland. In England the system has already caused problems. The by far largest concentration of their population is in the South East. This resulted in some pretty "southern" teams like Gloucester City & Oxford City ending up in the north division in recent years. Scotland's population is even more concentrated in a relatively small part of the country. Such a system could lead to crazy situations like East Stirlingshire ending up in the HL, I don't think they'd really fancy regular trips to places like Wick. Also, the National League North in England is a higher standard & more professional and roads/infrastructure in northern England are better than in northern Scotland. That makes it clear that travel is likely going to be more of an issue in the HL if the area becomes too large.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

11 minutes ago, Marten said:

In England, the highest regionalised leagues are the National League North/South. As opposed to Scotland, England doesn't have a fixed boundary between the 2. There are 44 teams at that level, with the 22 northernmost ones going in the north division and the 22 others in the south division. In Scotland, I don't think that will currently work. The northernmost LL team is Kelty Hearts, the closest HL team to them is Cove Rangers (ignoring Fort William who are further south, but they are outliers and likely to drop into tier 6 once there is a proper pyramid in the north). It's pretty clear that putting Kelty in the HL or Cove in the LL is not going to become popular. We'll first need some Tayside teams going into the HL and some Perthshire/North Fife teams to go into the LL to be realistically able to use such a system.

Even then, I'm not sure the system will work in Scotland. In England the system has already caused problems. The by far largest concentration of their population is in the South East. This resulted in some pretty "southern" teams like Gloucester City & Oxford City ending up in the north division in recent years. Scotland's population is even more concentrated in a relatively small part of the country. Such a system could lead to crazy situations like East Stirlingshire ending up in the HL, I don't think they'd really fancy regular trips to places like Wick. Also, the National League North in England is a higher standard & more professional and roads/infrastructure in northern England are better than in northern Scotland. That makes it clear that travel is likely going to be more of an issue in the HL if the area becomes too large.

Fair enough,  that explains a fair bit more then, aye the central belt is more geographically  south than central. it would seem a bit ridiculous if promotion spaces ended up being dependent on where the relegated team come from tho,ugh

[GordonS]

6 hours ago, Marten said:

Scotland's population is even more concentrated in a relatively small part of the country. Such a system could lead to crazy situations like East Stirlingshire ending up in the HL, I don't think they'd really fancy regular trips to places like Wick. 

The best example of this is in the League Cup, in which Edinburgh clubs have been in the north group!

Scotland's population spread does indeed mean we can't just borrow from England here.

[Nimmo's Notes]

The Challenge Cup is split into North and South for the first round and there's been occasions where Shire have been put into the North section and Stenhousemuir in the South, whilst sharing the same ground! We ended up away to Formartine. 

[Cyclizine]

23 minutes ago, Nimmo's Notes said:

The Challenge Cup is split into North and South for the first round and there's been occasions where Shire have been put into the North section and Stenhousemuir in the South, whilst sharing the same ground! We ended up away to Formartine. 

The difference is clubs are seeded and then split geographically, rather than the other way round.

[Cyclizine]

I think the optimal solution for Scotland given the geography is something like the Regionalligen in Germany. Have relatively fixed regional boundaries, but allocate the promotion/playoff places relative to the number of (licenced) clubs in each region. Means you can have a relatively shallow pyramid in the North due to lower population and deeper in the South, as it currently is, without making it 'easier' for the fewer number of North clubs to gain promotion.

[Rab B Nesbit]

57 minutes ago, Nimmo's Notes said:

The Challenge Cup is split into North and South for the first round and there's been occasions where Shire have been put into the North section and Stenhousemuir in the South, whilst sharing the same ground! We ended up away to Formartine. 

Problem solved now !  

[effeffsee_the2nd]

4 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

I think the optimal solution for Scotland given the geography is something like the Regionalligen in Germany. Have relatively fixed regional boundaries, but allocate the promotion/playoff places relative to the number of (licenced) clubs in each region. Means you can have a relatively shallow pyramid in the North due to lower population and deeper in the South, as it currently is, without making it 'easier' for the fewer number of North clubs to gain promotion.

There lies the problem for us I think. There are only 11 t of the 42 clubs that belong to the north region, Aberdeen both Dundee's ICT & ross county. brechin Forfar Arbroath Montrose elgin & Peterhead,  if we assume that none of the full time teams will ever end up relegated then its going to be a lowland team bottom more often than not.  someone figure out what to do without making it too complex. its beyond me!

[FairWeatherFan]

Regional issues like this is why the Scottish National Conference idea  were always floated around.