newcastle broon Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 35 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: Restricting relegation wont solve that conundrum, they are already faced with going to EoS or SOS as it stands. Either way, a WoSFL in some form will exist in 2019-20, so if EK, CC or BSC get relegated next season they will more than likely go there. I'm a million % certain them 3 clubs you quoted won't be near the bottom next season. On saying that 2 of these clubs are now represented on the league committee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmc80 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Everyone wants in the lowland league now. [emoji16] popular wee place. Thing is, the long established clubs (mine not included) took a big risk to make the leap to LL 6 plus years ago. nobody knew how things would go but they were willing to give it a go even tho all the nae sayers said it would never work. A few of the nae sayers are all over this thread now preaching about how the league should be opened up for everyone. Where was all this positive chat 6 years ago? There is no doubt the ins and outs of the pyramid needs to change. But its easier now to come out with all these wonderfull ideas when the other clubs took the initial risk and make a success of the league. Dont blame everyone for wanting in tho. Its great[emoji16] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanley Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 9 minutes ago, johnmc80 said: Everyone wants in the lowland league now. popular wee place. Thing is, the long established clubs (mine not included) took a big risk to make the leap to LL 6 plus years ago. nobody knew how things would go but they were willing to give it a go even tho all the nae sayers said it would never work. A few of the nae sayers are all over this thread now preaching about how the league should be opened up for everyone. Where was all this positive chat 6 years ago? There is no doubt the ins and outs of the pyramid needs to change. But its easier now to come out with all these wonderfull ideas when the other clubs took the initial risk and make a success of the league. Dont blame everyone for wanting in tho. Its great I don't think it was a big leap. It was the exact same as before in the EoS with a couple of new West teams added in. I don't think there was any risk involved at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab B Nesbit Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 23 minutes ago, johnmc80 said: Everyone wants in the lowland league now. popular wee place. Thing is, the long established clubs (mine not included) took a big risk to make the leap to LL 6 plus years ago. nobody knew how things would go but they were willing to give it a go even tho all the nae sayers said it would never work. A few of the nae sayers are all over this thread now preaching about how the league should be opened up for everyone. Where was all this positive chat 6 years ago? There is no doubt the ins and outs of the pyramid needs to change. But its easier now to come out with all these wonderfull ideas when the other clubs took the initial risk and make a success of the league. Dont blame everyone for wanting in tho. Its great Well said johnmc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmc80 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Of course there was a risk. Taking a leap into the unknown will always be a risk. And nobody could have said hand on heart how it was going to work out. There was plenty willing it to fail tho or saying it would never work. Good few still posting on here were the leagues biggest critics when it was formed. Alot of clubs didnt want anything to do with it because they were in there own wee happy bubble and didnt want to take the risks involved in leaving that for something new and progresive. That opinion is changing now and you are seeing clubs and fans that in the past didnt want to know, having there heads turned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, johnmc80 said: Of course there was a risk. Taking a leap into the unknown will always be a risk. And nobody could have said hand on heart how it was going to work out. There was plenty willing it to fail tho or saying it would never work. Good few still posting on here were the leagues biggest critics when it was formed. Alot of clubs didnt want anything to do with it because they were in there own wee happy bubble and didnt want to take the risks involved in leaving that for something new and progresive. That opinion is changing now and you are seeing clubs and fans that in the past didnt want to know, having there heads turned. The risk for EoS sides was almost negligible, because effectively it was the EoS Premier that morphed into the LL, same teams, same fixtures, hence why they were keen to get it up and running within 6 weeks. Subsequently there was zero risk for EK, BSC and CC as they were new starts. There was much much more at stake for the Junior clubs, particularly the bigger ones with a support. There's a whole host of reasons why and it has all been done to death over the intervening years. It's safe to say though that the SJFA should have bought into it at the very beginning, they didnt, and now they are paying the price. All of that is in the past though and should have absolutely no bearing on what is the right thing to do today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 On 02/02/2014 at 11:03, Burnie_man said: If we're talking logic, then the next logical step is for the SJFA to embrace the idea of a pyramid and work with the SFA at getting Juniors integrated into it, and into the Lowland League. That's logic, not an East/West Superleague. In response to the SJFA proposing an East/West Superleague in 2014 to compete with the LL. Aye, totally anti the LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnmc80 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I agree with alot of what you have to say burnieman. You are clearly passionate about the subject and that can only be good. There was no risk for the newly formed ek, and bsc and cc didnt join till a few years after first season. But there were still risks there for the established clubs. All of that is in the past as you say but its maybe the manner in which you come in all guns blazing that can get some of the locals backs up when they remember you being so critical of the league and set up in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendan Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 It's disappointing that it hasn't been opened up more, but longer term there should be one place for the EoS and one for the yet-to-be-formed WoS, so I think the EoS will have to get used to this. Tier 6 is going to be a very good level, so it's not like being trapped in some barren wasteland. One would hope none of the LL teams currently opposed to more places would change their tune if relegated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, johnmc80 said: I agree with alot of what you have to say burnieman. You are clearly passionate about the subject and that can only be good. There was no risk for the newly formed ek, and bsc and cc didnt join till a few years after first season. But there were still risks there for the established clubs. All of that is in the past as you say but its maybe the manner in which you come in all guns blazing that can get some of the locals backs up when they remember you being so critical of the league and set up in the past. I wasn't that critical, see my post above, I fully supported the concept. Of course there was various criticism's along the way but it wasn't about the actual concept itself. I've not come in all guns blazing, I think it's a very reasonable expectation that a 16 team league moves from 1 relegation spot to 2, and the EoS Board support that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I've been following the development of the pyramid from the beginning, and it's absolute nonsense to say that Burnie_man was anti-pyramid or against the Lowland League. He criticised the way in which the league eventually formed, but most of that criticism was levelled at the SFA and SJFA rather than the Lowland League or the clubs in it. I think the Lowland League does need to make the first move here - one of the biggest problems with automatic relegation from the SPFL right now is that the clubs in there will quite clearly feel that the Lowland League doesn't contain all of the best non-league clubs in the Lowland area. Some of them are certainly in there, but it's also fairly obvious that having the likes of Auchinleck, Beith, Bonnyrigg and Linlithgow would make the league much stronger. Anything that the Lowland League can do to expedite the process of getting those teams on board should be helpful in them (and the HL) building a case for automatic relegation from above. Everyone in the system is making concessions here - the SPFL opened themselves up at the bottom, the current Lowland League put faith in the system and made the jump early, and the new EoS sides set their traditions aside to put their faith in the pyramid. Lowland League fans adopting an us and them mentality is not helpful - they have been able to take the moral high ground in the debate in recent years, but are in danger of looking every bit as insular as many Junior fans have been over the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanley Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I've always wanted a unified system and I've always been positive about the LL and EoS. Naturally I've always been biased towards senior football as I support Hearts and junior football isn't exactly a big deal in Edinburgh (only Edinburgh United for years and then Craigroyston briefly...and all others being EoS and later LL). That being said, I just don't see a real risk involved for the EoS clubs with the setting up of the Lowland League. The risk would have been for a club like Spartans to turn down the LL and remain in a depleted EoS. They moved from the EoS Premier to the LL which was effectively just a new name for the EoS Premier minus the clubs with lesser facilities. 9/12 of the original clubs were EoS, Dalbeattie and Threave were both ex-EoS and only East Kilbride were completely new. The original clubs (minus a couple which have been relegated) have their reward for joining the LL. They have their place in tier five and they deserve to be there right now as they moved first. What we need to see soon is an increase in relegation spots to recognise that the EoS now contains some clubs which have real potential to be LL or higher. Previously, there was no debate. LTHV unlicensed at that point and most of the licensed clubs in the EoS had no chance of promotion and most of the licensed clubs in the SoS didn't seem to want promotion. The situation has changed massively and I hope that, with clubs becoming licensed over time in the EoS, there will be more spots available and the LL will grow stronger and its reputation will increase further (absolutely no doubt that the LL has increased in reputation over time and has a higher reputation than the EoS did before the LL formed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VodkaTap Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I have always been in favour of a completely integrated pyramid system where every team find its own level - whatever that might be. To say there was no risk for the original EoS teams moving to the LL is not quite accurate. They had to get licenced and that in itself was a complete leap in the dark - nobody truly knew what was involved from both sides, the SFA and the club themselves. That process has become a lot slicker as time has gone on. I feel that a lot of folk are wanting the finished article right now in terms of promotion & relegation when in fact, few teams are in a position to be promoted to the LL. Of course the numbers for relegation and promotion will change - exactly when is down for further discussions between the 3 relevant leagues - but is hardly a priority right away. Some time this coming season is when I would expect to hear about change on this issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 42 minutes ago, stanley said: (absolutely no doubt that the LL has increased in reputation over time and has a higher reputation than the EoS did before the LL formed). And there we have it. A league with a "higher reputation" than the EOSFL. So the teams already in that "increased in reputation" league are now being asked to basically open the floodgates because all of a sudden the league below them has had a multitude of entrants. I think there lies a case for the LL clubs in this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 54 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Everyone in the system is making concessions here - the SPFL opened themselves up at the bottom, the current Lowland League put faith in the system and made the jump early, and the new EoS sides set their traditions aside to put their faith in the pyramid. Lowland League fans adopting an us and them mentality is not helpful - they have been able to take the moral high ground in the debate in recent years, but are in danger of looking every bit as insular as many Junior fans have been over the last few years. Who's actually making an us and them mentality? Football leagues are won and lost over a period of several months. At present one side are relegated from the LL after them games have been played. I'm sure the LL committee will be on pnb every day taking all points of view. After all it's the be all and end all of Scottish fitba. Aye right? Teams will find their grades eventually. As it stands it will take a little longer. The last I read the Ayrshire teams weren't interested yet when and if they do become interested are you saying the LL will be expected to bend over backwards for them and fast track them in. I somehow don't think that would get passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Burnie_man said: In response to the SJFA proposing an East/West Superleague in 2014 to compete with the LL. Aye, totally anti the LL Canny believe you actually went back and singled one of hundreds of yer posts out. Can you post all the negative comments as well because there were quite a few Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 17 minutes ago, newcastle broon said: And there we have it. A league with a "higher reputation" than the EOSFL. So the teams already in that "increased in reputation" league are now being asked to basically open the floodgates because all of a sudden the league below them has had a multitude of entrants. I think there lies a case for the LL clubs in this debate. You do understand the concept of a Pyramid right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 minute ago, newcastle broon said: Canny believe you actually went back and singled one of hundreds of yer posts out. Can you post all the negative comments as well because there were quite a few You don't understand the difference between criticism and being anti do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Just now, Burnie_man said: You do understand the concept of a Pyramid right? Yip I live in a country that has had it for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Just now, newcastle broon said: Yip I live in a country that has had it for years. With respect, it doesn't seem like it. You would be quite happy if the LL restricted the flow of clubs upwards and downwards. Quite remarkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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