Gaelic Gaelic

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, thistledo said:

It would definitely be good to have more Gaelic speakers, but dead in a decade seems a bit extreme. I listen to a lot of Scottish trad music sang in Gaelic and have met a lot of younger demographic and musicians in the west coast highlands who can speak it fluently. 

People can speak fluent Latin but it's still a dead language. 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 hour ago, thistledo said:

It would definitely be good to have more Gaelic speakers, but dead in a decade seems a bit extreme. I listen to a lot of Scottish trad music sang in Gaelic and have met a lot of younger demographic and musicians in the west coast highlands who can speak it fluently. 

But how many use it as a first language? The day to day language of the home or socialising with friends? Even in areas that still have a Gaelic speaking majority English is now the main language of the home. As much as the attempts to make it into a lot people's 2nd language (and that number is growing) is a good start more work needs to be done in the three main Gaelic speaking council areas (Hebrides, Highlands and Argyll and Bute) to make it the 1st language of those areas if it is not to die.

[thistledo]

1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

But how many use it as a first language? The day to day language of the home or socialising with friends? Even in areas that still have a Gaelic speaking majority English is now the main language of the home. As much as the attempts to make it into a lot people's 2nd language (and that number is growing) is a good start more work needs to be done in the three main Gaelic speaking council areas (Hebrides, Highlands and Argyll and Bute) to make it the 1st language of those areas if it is not to die.

I read an article that as of this year, schools in the Western Isles are teaching Gaelic as the default language, unless parents say otherwise. 

I suppose there is a debate on first and second languages that will always remain for Gaelic. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

People can speak fluent Latin but it's still a dead language. 

It is the official Language of the Vatican City so it’s not quite “dead” yet .

[effeffsee_the2nd]

I read an article that as of this year, schools in the Western Isles are teaching Gaelic as the default language, unless parents say otherwise. 

I suppose there is a debate on first and second languages that will always remain for Gaelic. 

If that article is true then gaelic is finished. If young children & families don’t use it at home, in the playground , if teenagers don’t use it on social media etc then it will just become a hobby language similar to when immigrant families teach their children the grandparents tounge to stay connected with their roots but which serves little practical use.

I lived in Shetland about 10 years ago, they don’t speak gaelic but the older people spoke a local scots based dialect so thick that even those from the north east would need an interpreter yet pretty much all of the young people spoke in that glasgow uni type accent kevin bridges takes the piss out of, the difference was night and day

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Hebrew's a good example of how to save a language and make it thrive. So not is all lost but I see it going the way of Latin :/

[Hillonearth]

On 02/07/2020 at 11:12, AsimButtHitsASix said:

But how many use it as a first language? The day to day language of the home or socialising with friends? Even in areas that still have a Gaelic speaking majority English is now the main language of the home. As much as the attempts to make it into a lot people's 2nd language (and that number is growing) is a good start more work needs to be done in the three main Gaelic speaking council areas (Hebrides, Highlands and Argyll and Bute) to make it the 1st language of those areas if it is not to die.

Maybe there are some places dotted about the more remote bits of the Western Isles where it's the preferred language for daily discourse, but I'm not even sure that's the case any more. I remember my mother telling me about visiting her elderly grandparents on one of the islands when she was a kid who were Gaelic speakers and had a bit of trouble making themselves understood in English, but they would have been born in the latter half of the 19th century and probably belonged to the last generation that were virtually monolingual in Gaelic.

It won't die out completely - there are enough people interested in learning it that it won't go the way of the likes of Manx which only lives on on cutesy celtic-font signs, but if those living in the traditional Gàidhealtachd choose not to use it as their language of choice that'll be the end of it...it's ultimately their choice to make, and not for outsiders to treat the area like some kind of linguistic human zoo.

[invergowrie arab]

 

I don't disagree with any of this but it's a distilled summary of the issues facing the language.

Languages don't go out of fashion. People don't just choose to speak or not speak it.

The "choice" is indeed ultimately down to the people who live there. However, those choices are influenced by a host of societal factors, not least the economy.

To take one example. If traditional industries like crofting and fishing are gubbed and the economic future of the islands is a highland Disneyland based on second home ownership and campervan spots then Gaelic becomes less and less important as a community language.

If young people see their futures off island because of a lack of employment, education and housing opportunities then that's negative for the language. So, yes, islanders need to choose to speak it but the external supports that need to be in place are economic and social rather than linguistic.

[Guest JTS98]

On 15/07/2020 at 20:25, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Hebrew's a good example of how to save a language and make it thrive. So not is all lost but I see it going the way of Latin

Hebrew was the language of a religion and then became an official language of a nation state. Gaelic has no chance of becoming either of those.

It's hard to see the way back for Gaelic from here. Put simply, a language needs a community to exist. And a community needs a reason to use a language.

What Gaelic has in its favour compared to other endangered languages is that it is very well documented and so is better placed than most for any revival if it were to materialise.

But it's hard to see where that revival comes from. The communities that speak it are less cut-off from the outside world than they've ever been, young people will continue to look outwards, more influences will come in the way. Same story the world over. It's a shame, but it's also just human development. As globalisation takes a greater hold, the number of languages in the world is plummeting and will continue to do so.

Enjoy it while it's here, but it's hard to see a way of keeping it alive or - looking at it quite coldly -  a lot of justification for doing so.

[Nutz_the_Squirrel]

South Indian Gaelic Chilli Chicken

[invergowrie arab]

2 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Is mar sin leat/leibh more formal than tioraidh? I mind someone in this thread saying old Gaels didn't like the latter as it was an import.

Hopefully it wasnt me that said it or im away to make a right c**t of it.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with mar sin leat/leibh.

You are maybe thinking of mas ur toil leibh - if it is pleasing with you. It's not wrong but it's used as a way of saying please in a way that Gaelic would not usually say please. The last place I saw it was Trinity College Dublin on a keep off the grass sign. 

Gaelic makes commands using the verb. Thig a-steach. Come inside. If you want to soften the command you can put a bh on the end. Thigibh a-steach.

Fuirichibh dheth an fheoir. Keep off the grass is perfectly polite but because it starts with a command is perhaps not as polite to Anglophone sensibilities which is why they added - if it is pleasing to you - on the end.

Back to mar sin leat/leibh It's not at all formal but remember it's a response - Like that with you.

So if someone days oichdhe mhath or beannachd leat then say mar sin leat but you wouldn't say it before someone says something for you to say - aye and you yourself - back to them.

[Duszek]

On 23/07/2020 at 11:45, invergowrie arab said:

You are maybe thinking of mas ur toil leibh. The last place I saw it was Trinity College Dublin on a keep off the grass sign. 

Don’t recall seeing much Gaelic during my Trinity days - good to hear.

i’ve just started Duolingo’s Irish course. I see it as payback for tapping them up (Eire, not Duolingo) for EU citizenship.

[DiegoDiego]

On 17/07/2020 at 13:43, invergowrie arab said:

To take one example. If traditional industries like crofting and fishing are gubbed and the economic future of the islands is a highland Disneyland based on second home ownership and campervan spots then Gaelic becomes less and less important as a community language.

If young people see their futures off island because of a lack of employment, education and housing opportunities then that's negative for the language. So, yes, islanders need to choose to speak it but the external supports that need to be in place are economic and social rather than linguistic.

From a demographic and economic perspective, why are the Faroes so much more successful than the Hebrides? In 1851 the Hebrides had ten times the population of the Faroes, but recently the Faroes have overtaken the Hebrides. The Faroese economy is massively dependent on fishing, but they have very low unemployment and even make loans to other countries. Is it simply that the Hebridean fishing industry is uncompetitive? And if so, why and what can be done about it? Or should we just start a war over Rockall?

[John Lambies Doos]

My mum is fairly proficient in Irish Gaelic, did it for 12 yrs at school.. I would know a few words and have clashed them against Scottish Gaelic, eg all the colours are exactly a same... Seems like the Irish Gaelic is a bit more modernised but about 97% similar I believe

[invergowrie arab]

59 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

My mum is fairly proficient in Irish Gaelic, did it for 12 yrs at school.. I would know a few words and have clashed them against Scottish Gaelic, eg all the colours are exactly a same... Seems like the Irish Gaelic is a bit more modernised but about 97% similar I believe

I can read enough Irish that i could tell you whats going on despite never having had any education in the language. Can pick out words and phrases but wouldn't be able to follow a conversation listening  but I wouldn't have the first idea how to write or speak it.

I believe there is enough mutual intelligibility, especially with Donegal Irish, that native speakers can communicate 

Edited December 7, 2020 by invergowrie arab

[Hedgecutter]

On 30 July 2020 at 12:10, DiegoDiego said:

From a demographic and economic perspective, why are the Faroes so much more successful than the Hebrides? In 1851 the Hebrides had ten times the population of the Faroes, but recently the Faroes have overtaken the Hebrides. The Faroese economy is massively dependent on fishing, but they have very low unemployment and even make loans to other countries. Is it simply that the Hebridean fishing industry is uncompetitive? And if so, why and what can be done about it? Or should we just start a war over Rockall?

It's not just open water fishing up there, where the waters are more productive anyway (due to the Gulf Stream hitting the Arctic waters). The fjord-like geography (completely different to the Hebrides) is much more favourable to salmon farming, the vast majority of revenue from Faroese exports stay and are spent in the Faroes (ie tax) and they get an annual grant from their Danish overlords. Also, half of the fish exports involve salmon which I would imagine has a higher value than cod etc. Sufficient to allow for cool tunnels with sub-Atlantic roundabouts.     

So... give the Hebrides more waters to fish, give those waters a higher proportion of salmon, give Western Isles Council the VAT raised from Hebridean goods and then make Westminster/Holyrood give them an annual subsidy on top of that.

eta: to avoid a complete tangent here, it's worth noting that a very large proportion of the Faroese are tri-lingual.  They speak Faroese in everyday life, learn Danish at school to a fluent level, and are also fluent in English for the usual reasons.  Not bad for a group of fishermen isolated in the middle of the Atlantic.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Hedgecutter

[DiegoDiego]

I've been sat on furlough since boxing day and have been getting stuck right into the Duolingo (furlough is math fucking fhèin).
It's been really enjoyable learning a language purely out of interest for once. Spelling and pronunciation is starting to come a lot more naturally now which is a bit of a relief. Hopefully I'll be able to keep up some activity once restrictions lift and I'm forced into contributing to society again.

It's also got me looking up toponym etymology, which has taken me down many a Wikipedia hole and resulted in me becoming a lot more knowledgeable about my own country and its history.

[invergowrie arab]

56 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

I've been sat on furlough since boxing day and have been getting stuck right into the Duolingo (furlough is math fucking fhèin).
It's been really enjoyable learning a language purely out of interest for once. Spelling and pronunciation is starting to come a lot more naturally now which is a bit of a relief. Hopefully I'll be able to keep up some activity once restrictions lift and I'm forced into contributing to society again.

It's also got me looking up toponym etymology, which has taken me down many a Wikipedia hole and resulted in me becoming a lot more knowledgeable about my own country and its history.

Onomastics is the main reason to learn it TBH. A never ending source of fun. 

This is the best 30 quid you will ever spend https://www.amazon.co.uk/Celtic-Place-names-Scotland-W-J-Watson/dp/1906566356

 

[DiegoDiego]

Onomastics is the main reason to learn it TBH. A never ending source of fun. 

It is great. I love language and etymology anyway. To be honest, a couple of months ago I had no idea how important the Picts were. My Scottish history curriculum went something like:

The Romans never conquered us, the Picts were too ferocious and our landscape too unforgiving.
1314, f**k the English!
1603, f**k the English!
1707, f**k the English!
1745, f**k the English!
Post jacobite cultural genocide and clearances, f**k the English!

That was of course a few decades ago at a Highland primary school whose headmaster's mother tongue was Gaelic.
Not sure if it's still like that but perhaps it might be good to interject some more positive aspects in there. Talk about Big Ken MacAlpine and frame Scotland as a union of Picts and Gaels, something a bit more inclusive. More about the enlightenment. I'm way off topic here but I'm not sure framing our nation as one in constant struggle against our neighbours does us much favours in the 21st century.

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, DiegoDiego said:

It is great. I love language and etymology anyway. To be honest, a couple of months ago I had no idea how important the Picts were. My Scottish history curriculum went something like:

The Romans never conquered us, the Picts were too ferocious and our landscape too unforgiving.
1314, f**k the English!
1603, f**k the English!
1707, f**k the English!
1745, f**k the English!
Post jacobite cultural genocide and clearances, f**k the English!

That was of course a few decades ago at a Highland primary school whose headmaster's mother tongue was Gaelic.
Not sure if it's still like that but perhaps it might be good to interject some more positive aspects in there. Talk about Big Ken MacAlpine and frame Scotland as a union of Picts and Gaels, something a bit more inclusive. More about the enlightenment. I'm way off topic here but I'm not sure framing our nation as one in constant struggle against our neighbours does us much favours in the 21st century.

Correct. It's bollocks.

How many people get taught at school that a Norse language close to Faroese was spoken on mainland Scotland up until the 15th century and only went fully extinct in the last 150 years.

Or that until the 16th century Gaelic was called Scots by the people speaking what we call Scots today but was appropriated for political reasons.

Or that the Lordship of the Isles existed as independent Norse-Gael kingdom until the 16th century to the extent that they were recognised as a sovereign power and signed a treaty with the Kingdom of England to attack Scotland in 1462.

Scotland has always been multi-cultural and multi-lingual and we are easily interesting and bloodthirsty enough within our own borders to be worthy of study without reference to England.